The New And Improved Unofficial R65 Forum V2
Technical Discussion => BMW Technical Q&A, Primarily R65 => Topic started by: jg928s4 on September 21, 2011, 08:46:03 PM
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1980 R65 Died in interesection, got starter function, float bowls full of gas, sounded like it was trying to start when I pushed to side of road. Daughter brought me a few tools and I tinkered w/it until Battery went dead. AAA on call to get it home, will charge battery and check for good spark, any other suggestions? Had been running good until now.
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Sorry to hear that.
I'm not the resident expert, but sounds like something electrical related.
Coil? Diode board? Loose wire?
Bike dying suddenly sounds electrical related.
Wish I had the answer but it's going to take some diagnosis. I bought the CD from Rick Jones on electrical troubleshooting, and found it helpful in solving some problems I was having.
Looking forward to hearing the process you'll go through and what the RX is.
Good Luck - am sure others will chime in to help you figure it out.
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Only problem area I know of on the 78-80 model bikes, is the main ground for the electrical system is the clamp that holds the front ignition coil.
If the clamp cracks you can lose all of the grounds for the bikes electrical system.
That's just a guess on my part .
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Hi Jg - my R65 died on me in exactly the same way just 45 k's after I bought it. It turned out to be the OEM coil just died. I had it replaced by my then local dealer and 5 years later it died again. It seems that these OEM coils have a limited life I eventuallyfound out from BMW shop. I bought an after market coil from them about 10 years ago and it's still running okay. If it turns out to be the coil then maybe find a quality aftermarket unit instead of the OEM unit. Good luck finding the fault mate ....
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best way to check the coil? I have a volt meter handy. Front coil is mounted on solidly, rear coil strapped on w/Cable tie and Guerilla tape as always been last 3 months.
Cleaning airfilter, shot some started fluid to see if would start no luck. Spark plugs seem awfully clean and dry upon inspection...
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Does it even attempt to 'fire', or is it just starter motor whirring and no signs of any combustion whatsoever?
Can you (carefully) remove 1 spark plug at a time, plug it back into the plug lead and hold the plug threads against the cylinder fins (best use gloves) and turn the ignition on? Any spark present while trying to crank the motor?
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Verified spark on both sides as suggested above, when did put a bit of stater fluid in before replacing plug and it seemed like it wanted to fire up, but no start.
How can I tell if fuel is making it's way to the fire? needle valves pluged? Fuel in bowls, but did some debri get by the paper filter?
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Hi Jg - my R65 died on me in exactly the same way just 45 k's after I bought it. It turned out to be the OEM coil just died. I had it replaced by my then local dealer and 5 years later it died again. It seems that these OEM coils have a limited life I eventuallyfound out from BMW shop. I bought an after market coil from them about 10 years ago and it's still running okay. If it turns out to be the coil then maybe find a quality aftermarket unit instead of the OEM unit. Good luck finding the fault mate ....
Adrian - I think you have a 1984? If so, you have electronic ignition and indeed your OEM coil was a bad design by BMW (or Bosch). In fact, it earned the nickname "crack-o-matic".
jg has a 1980, which is a points ignition and two separate coils. My original coils were still working great when I replaced them 5 or 6 years ago "just because".
Like Bob mentioned, my front coil mount broke off the main frame a long time ago, taking the main ground connection with it.
jg - check that connection and make sure that it is clean, and that the coil mount is not getting ready to fall off.
Take your ohm meter and check for continuity between that point and the negative terminal on the battery.
Besides the big fat positive wire going to the starter, there is a small positive wire that is hooked to the battery. Make sure it is in good shape.
Disconnect the ground wire on the battery, and then remove the front engine cover and look around.
And you might want to consider a preemptive relocation of the harness ground, for the day that the front coil mount DOES break.
Here is how I did mine:
(https://bmwr65.org/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.pbase.com%2Ftomfarr%2Fimage%2F90927252%2Fmedium.jpg&hash=dc5ef34d984234695efa1cb150820cd56638bfba)
(https://bmwr65.org/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.pbase.com%2Ftomfarr%2Fimage%2F98334414%2Fmedium.jpg&hash=45dd46bca5a0ade0eaa10f3cef9c9d82fa457373)
Remove the paint on the bracket and use dielectric grease (or even Vaseline or axle grease) on the connection.
These bikes will run on only one cylinder, and even start on only one, so it is unlikely that both carburetors were affected simultaneously. As long as you have fuel in both bowls, you should be OK there.
It is also possible that the condenser that hangs on the side of the bean can failed. If you decide to replace it, don't throw away the old one until you are certain that that was the problem. It is always good to have an old working one for backup.
Have you checked / measured your point gap and condition of the points since you got the bike?
Feel free to remove the bean can from the bike to make this chore easier, but you might want to use a Sharpie (pen) to mark the position of the bean can before removing it so you can get your timing in approximately the right spot when you put it back.
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will do tomorrow, thanks for the replies.
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will do tomorrow, thanks for the replies.
Please be sure to see my edits.
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Now you are down to the basics of troubleshooting: fuel, spark,compression .
What color is the spark at the plugs, is it a white/blue, or yellow/orange ?
Check the points condition, are they black and 'sooty' looking, that's a good indication of a failed condenser.
Check the resistance of the ignition coils primary and secondary circuits, the primary circuit should have around 3 ohms, the secondary around 11-13,000 ohms .
With the fuel line routing on these bikes, the left cylinder will quit before the right cylinder, and it will still run for up to a minute on the right cylinder only, if it is a fuel delivery problem, but check both carb bowls for fuel, if the bowls have debris in them, a good cleaning is in order .
Do a compression test of both cylinders, check valve clearances if you haven't done them .
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It's really easy to forget about the points since they tend to last forever hidden away in that 'bean can'. And, they probably are still good, only problem is the rubbing block. If they don't get regularly lubed, they'll wear down and eventually the points won't open.
As already stated, I'd suspect points or condenser.
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spark seems a dull orange. cleaned up the ground and dialectic jelly on ground under connection. Is there a secret to take off of the top engine cover? Took off bolt allen bolts, don't want to force off, is there something else I am missing?
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The top cover would be easier removed when the airbox top cover is removed as well. But it should come out with or without removing the airbox cover. Just the remove the two allen bolts and pull straight up.
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thanks, have the airbox cover off, will give a good pull tomorrow.
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Be extremely careful when Troubleshooting spark with the sparkplugs out!I bought a brand new 1981 R65.IN 199? it died with the same symptons.I trucked it home.The BMW techs said it was one of 2 electronic modules uner the gas tank.I bought the most likely module
and replaced it temporarily.A tiny mounting screw popped out as I removed the unit.No problem??I had the sparkplugout anf grounded.
When I turned the motor over it seized.Luckily I pulled the LH cylinder head to find that screw jammed against the piston thru the spark plug
hole!Long story-Lost parts-It hasn't run since.It might have only been a common coil problem .I bought a running R65LS and mix/matched parts to get a running machine. JEG
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Did same thing with a 66 bug years ago, air cleaner nut in the spark plug hole.
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What's the dwell setting on 2 cyl systems? I still have a Griefkit dwell meter, don't use it much.
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I'd put a little grease on the rubbing block cam, what kind is open to opinion. You don't want it flying off and getting on the point contact surface.
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Have white spark on left cylinder/front coil. right was not as bright, so replaced left coil, still more of an orange spark. Checking all conections between coils and grounds, they seem good? It seems to want to start, but lots of popping and sputtering.
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You want a fat, blue spark at the plug. Have you replaced the plugs yet?
How old are the plug wires / caps?
If you have the original wires, don't throw them away when you replace them - the ends that go into the coil are soldered on and are superior to anything else. They can be reused by de-soldering them and soldering them onto a new set of (high quality) wires.
I get my wires (Part #23-2902) and caps from MikesXS supply: http://www.mikesxs.net/products-27.html#products
Fast service at a great price. I have always used the 5K ohm cap (Part #23-3113) even though that is supposed to be for electronic ignitions. I just like the cap that fits the threaded end of the spark plug is all. The solid terminal ends of most all spark plugs are removable with a pair of pliers.
I use NGK BP7ES plugs in my bike.
Here is Duane Ausherman's article on points ignitions. Read it - he knows his stuff.
http://w6rec.com/duane/bmw/points/index.htm
Another good source for ignition systems is Motorrad Elektrik: http://www.motoelekt.com/
He has a charging system book that I hear is great. I don't know how much it delves into the ignition system, but you can always give Rick a call - he will be happy to answer any questions.
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switched plugs side to side and other side now White vs. orange. Will get new plugs. Going on business trip, won't be able to get back to it until next weekend : (
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I would put in an order with Mikes for the wires & caps before you leave. They will arrive before next weekend.
I usually get my plugs at a local Japanese bike dealer.
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If your plug wire caps look like these, they are suspect. But the good news is, they are the originals with the good ends to be reused.
(https://bmwr65.org/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.pbase.com%2Ftomfarr%2Fimage%2F138330906.jpg&hash=8affba110a8fb1360424c495fa565980a4093cc6)
This picture is from eBay. Don't waste your money.
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My current have big black rubber end caps.
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My current have big black rubber end caps.
Good - that means you will most likely have the good tips that can be removed with a soldering iron and reused.
And if they are original, they are suspect. New NGK caps are so cheap (and waterproof) that I used to replace mine every 3-4 years (when I was riding a lot) "just because".
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My plug wires are like those found on ascycles in Roseville website. What are thoughts on those plug wires?
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My plug wires are like those found on ascycles in Roseville website. What are thoughts on those plug wires?
Do you have a link? I've no clue.
Perhaps you could just take a picture of the ones on your bike and post it here.
If they are old, you should probably replace them.
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It all depends on how long they've been in use on the bike .
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they seem to be in good shape. This type. When back in town will add pictures. Can I check them w/my meter? I hate to just keep buying stuff until it works. Was running perfect morning I went to work.
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Our bikes use solid core plug wires. Unlike cars that use some sort of carbon stuff that breaks down within miles, ours will conduct electricity almost indefinitely. But the insulation doesn't last indefinitely, and gets hard, brittle and cracked. Then when it's damp, it's possible for the spark to leak out and find an 'easier' ground than jumping the spark plug gap.
The caps on the stock plug wires can also develop high resistance, and because they're molded on, there's nothing that can be done about that.
Sure, they can be resistance checked. First take a measurement from cap to cap - I've forgotten what the reading should be, but what surfaces is something like 17K Ohms or something like that. There should be 5K Ohms in each cap, plus the resistance of the leads, plus the resistance of the coil.
Or you can pull the wires from the coil and test them individually - they should be around 5K Ohms for the electronic ignition and 1K Ohm for points.
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jg928s4
If your 1980 R65 has the original coils they will be twin 6volt type which should measure 1.5 ohms on the primary winding and 7000 ohms on the secondary winding.
For example I have 5000 ohm caps so cap to cap I measure 24000 ohms (5000 + 7000 + 7000 + 5000).
It's more useful to measure from cap to earth which will show any differences side to side. Here I get 12000 ohms (5000 + 7000). If you measure both sides and they are the same somewhere between 8000 - 12000 ohms depending on the cap resistance then the probability is everything's fine. If you get a substantially higher figure you need to detach the leads from the coils and measure everything separately. If your lead and cap together measure much more than 5000 ohms bin them without a 2nd thought. Ideally you need to know what the caps are supposed to be. They should be 1000 ohms for a points bike but as these are not that readily available many people have fitted 5000 ohm caps intended for the electronic ignition models. 5000 ohm caps if not ideal work OK on a points bike but you should not use resistor plugs as well.
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Ideally you need to know what the caps are supposed to be.
And I don't think the caps can be removed from the wires on either type of OEM set-up.
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And I don't think the caps can be removed from the wires on either type of OEM set-up.
Ok so that means you would have to remove the lead from the coil for testing and if the lead and cap together read substantially above 5000 ohms I'd replace them.
If you do replace them it's cheaper to make your own.
I have solid copper leads and NGK LB05F caps which are 5000 ohms. NGK caps are readily available and very well regarded. For a points bike if you can get LB01F caps which are 1000 ohm so much the better. Someone posted recently that they were available from an XS650 web site in the US.
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The reason I buy the NGK 5000 ohm caps (for my points bike) is because I perfer the connection method of slipping over the threaded top of the spark plug rather than the cap that comes screwed onto most spark plugs. It just seems to me to offer a better connection.
5K 1K
(https://bmwr65.org/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.mikesxs.net%2Fparts%2Fimg250%2F23-3113.jpg&hash=1d169a07bb716ea62b28a6cdb29bbf22f07e6b22) (https://bmwr65.org/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.mikesxs.net%2Fparts%2Fimg250%2F23-3116.jpg&hash=054ebe85c2f21e9bf1812e8c1e2fc5e88d6f26ec)
And they offer this smaller non-resistor cap if you want to go crazy:
(https://bmwr65.org/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.mikesxs.net%2Fparts%2Fimg250%2F23-3114.jpg&hash=276fb226f64a6b2669b19c107539f7b7eb178822)
Not sure how well it would fit.
Images courtesy of http://www.mikesxs.net/products-27.html#products
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If you go for the non-resistor caps, you don't have to get concerned about non-resistor plugs, which can be a bit troublesome to find at times and just use the common main stream resistor plugs available anywhere .
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Got hotter plugs (NGK) from Local autozone, Puff of smoke out of exhaust, bike starts, then dies, now no electrics. Headlamp or anything. Dead. Blow a fuse?
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Headlight isn't protected by a fuse, it's direct wired .
I think I would start looking at wiring, the cables at the battery have caused problems, with corrosion under the insulation, terminal ends still tight on the cable .
How does the end of the negative cable look where it is bolted the transmission case ???
The ignition switch is a remote possibility .
On the positive terminal of the battery, there are two wires, one is the large diameter black cable, the other is a smaller red wire, this wire provides the power to all of the circuits on the bike, except for the starter .
How does the terminal end look ?
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Have battery on a Tender, it is full charge. Can I bypass Ignition and Kill Switch to see if they have been the culprit? Before this try my starter always turned over w/Plenty of Zest, now no power to it at all...?
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You can remove the wires from the ignition switch and tape them together for testing purposes, you don't need to put the green wire in the group, it just lights the "Parking" light under the main headlight bulb, when the key is in the "PARK' position .
The red wire at the ignition switch is direct from the battery, so unless you have a battery cable disconnected, you will have battery voltage there when you start working there .
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Pulled a Kill switch from the spares bike, before putting on the bike I reseated the ignition connector and have power again. Must have pulled it part way out when I buttoned everything back up las weekend. Have power again, bike pops wants to start, has what I would consider good white spark on each plug. Is there a possibility the timing could have slipped?
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Anything is possible with a 32 year old vehicle .
Not difficult to check, there's a timing port hole on the left side of the engine, should have a rubber plug covering it .
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Have you considered the condenser? It's beginning to sound like that could be your problem. Condenser problems can mimic just about any other fault on the bike. They've driven me crazy more than once.
Easy to test - just remove it from the circuit. The points will wear quicker, but it will run, and get you home.
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Running ! ! , But not as good as before yet.
Disconnected condensor, stopped trying to Fire. Took a look at the points, apeared ok, but reset gap at .016 feeler, no difference in desire to start. AS I was in there I notice a PO paint dab where the dwell was set before? So I cleared wires etc. and loosened the Bean can and shifted Dwell to previouse setting, it had not shifted, semmed very tight before loosening. Try to start Bike at new setting, it starts up! seems rough but running, I adjust dwell by sound turn back to where I had previous, full lock clockwise and it idles good. Burn Arm on Exhaust.. put front cover back on, will not start? Take off cover bang knuckle on Shock, add oz of Blood, Bike starts ? ? Notice condensor wire that goes to coil has/had been pinched and is quite brittle. Replace w/cable from parts bike, starts and runs. Button up bike. Go for a ride, idles good, but does not give good power and pops and sputters.... Reminder always add blood..
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I'll remember next time to add blood. Maybe you've got a particularly blood thirsty specimen on your hands...
I'm thinking you may have disconnected the points lead when cutting the condensor out of the circuit.
Well, no matter now since it is running and it sounds like you found the fault. At this point it just needs the dwell and timing dialed in to run as sweet as before. ;)
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I pretty much ALWAYS burn my arm when adjusting the dwell.
Perhaps a welding glove?
Do you have a timing light?
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I adjust dwell by sound turn back to where I had previous, full lock clockwise and it idles good.Burn Arm on Exhaust.. put front cover back on, will not start?Take off cover bang knuckle on Shock, add oz of Blood, Bike starts ? ?Notice condensor wire that goes to coil has/had been pinched and is quite brittle.Replace w/cable from parts bike, starts and runs. Button up bike.Go for a ride, idles good, but does not give good power and pops and sputters....Reminder always add blood..
Sounds like you are getting there so a little blood is a badge of honour.
Just for clarification dwell is a measure of the length of time that the coil has to charge up. Dwell hardly matters much on an airhead because on a twin the coil has plenty of time between sparks to charge up enough (that is reach saturation). You don't need to worry about dwell as long as the points are opening up enough to give a good spark. Anywhere between 0.014" to 0.020" will work fine but it makes sense to target say 0.18" to allow for wear on the points heel closing the gap a little between services.
Adjusting the points gap changes both dwell and spark timing .
Rotating the bean can adjusts only the spark timing and not dwell.
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Now that I know it runs need to go back to the points when time permits. Just wish I had the special points tool, got to be a contortionist to lay down, get my head between the forks and front of the engine and look into the bean can to gap the suckers. Any "Pointers"?
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Just wish I had the special points tool
Are you talking about this special points tool?
(https://bmwr65.org/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.northwoodsairheads.com%2Fsitebuilder%2Fimages%2FIMG_1201-338x247.jpg&hash=f24b7417d06f688dadbdb422b00461b4adce16cc) (http://www.northwoodsairheads.com/Tools.html)
It only works on pre-beancan Type 247's (our bikes are Type 248).
The easiest way to set the point gap on the beancans is to remove it from the bike and do it on your workbench.
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The easiest way to set the point gap on the beancans is to remove it from the bike and do it on your workbench.
I agree. It's much easier on the work bench and there is no disadvantage in doing so as if you changed the points gap the timing will need adjustment anyway. Another thing to be aware of is if you set the points gap with the outrigger bearing plate removed the gap will change when it is refitted. On the bench it's not too difficult to set the gap with the bearing plate in place where as it's near impossible with the bean can on the bike.
So all in all it's really no more work to remove the bean can.
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On the bench it's not too difficult to set the gap with the bearing plate in place where as it's near impossible with the bean can on the bike.
And measuring the gap with the bearing plate in place is much easier with a set of tapered feeler gauges like these:
(https://bmwr65.org/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.mikesxs.net%2Fparts%2Fimg250%2F35-1768.jpg&hash=f7bf9a511f9ddcd7bf8660c61561af23459624d7)
inage borrowed from MikesXS Supply
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And measuring the gap with the bearing plate in place is much easier with a set of tapered feeler gauges like these:
Yes I have a set like that and I also remove them from the holder so that they can be used individually.
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Bad news, when I removed Bean Can found a few little parts between it and the bottom of mounting point of front cover. A little spring, piece of metal, the bean can inspection coverplate and a little plastic piece. The Bean can sounded like a dampened baby rattle when I removed it as well. I looked in the inspection point and saw similiar spring, I removed Point carrier to look inside and there is broken metal, missing part etc. Pretty Jacked up, surprised the Bike even started. Anyone hear of this failure before?
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Anyone hear of this failure before?
No never heard of the advance mechanism coming to bits before.
Are you sure it's actually broken and not just the spring having come off leaving the bob weight to flail about ?
I see you are looking for a new bean can but it is possible to remove the points base plate to get at the advance mechanism. From memory there is one screw to remove then the base plate has to be rotated to release it from crimps in the side of the can. On my bean can at least it was held in very tight by the crimps and in order to rotate the plate I had to make special tool similar to a pin wrench.
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One of the points where spring mounts to weight is definetely broken.
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One of the points where spring mounts to weight is definetely broken.
Except for the springs spare parts are not available for the points bean can. Someone with the right skills could repair the part or make a new part perhaps at less cost than a replacement bean can.
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I've heard that some foreign cars used these same bean cans. I'd look into finding one of those.
I agree with Barry, it should be possible to repair the post, or whatever is wrong with it.
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spring mounts to post pressed into a centrifical weight. were post pressed into weight, weight broke.
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So if I understand this correctly, on my 1984 with electronic ignition I can replace the 5k with 1K ohm wires, install Iridium resitor plugs and have the most powerful spark money can buy?
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0 ohm caps would be preferred if you are going to use resistor type plugs .
I don't think 1K caps would cause any problems, I unknowingly used resistor type plugs (Bosch Platinum) about 20 years ago, didn't seem to make a noticeable difference .
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Thanks Bob. I'll get the 0 K ohm wires and the Iridiums and see if I start 'popin' wheelies. Let you know
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So if I understand this correctly, on my 1984 with electronic ignition I can replace the 5k with 1K ohm wires, install Iridium resitor plugs and have the most powerful spark money can buy?
Well not exactly. Having electronic ignition in the first place means you don't have to worry too much about having a powerful enough spark. Nor do you need to worry too much about having resistor plugs and resistor caps. But yes using resistor plugs does mean you could use 1K caps or 0K caps come to that.
While it would in theory result in a little more spark energy the real question is does a more powerful spark make any practical difference most of the time on an airhead. It's more of an issue with a marginal points ignition system. The electronic ignition coils already have twice the energy of the points coils and how much difference does that make ? Not a a lot if any as far as I know. Same plug gaps same published power output.
What you must get with a more powerful ignition system is more reserve energy up your sleeve for firing fouled or wet plugs.
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Hi and thanks Barry - thats really useful information about my R65 ignition sustem. I wont bother with iridiums now and save the money for more needed stuff on my journey thru the rebuild. [smiley=thumbsup.gif] [smiley=thumbsup.gif]
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Tried to see if later Hall type can would be good for parts but no luck. need the shaft w/the Lobe on it as pictured.
Points type on left (note broken tab for spring mount) later type on right.
Time to go to aftermarket electric?
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Good time for it, if you can't find good used parts.
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Just received the caps, wires, plugs etc from Mikes (http://www.mikesxs.net/products-27.html#products) and not to sound too much like a newie but how do I attach the wire to the cap and the coil wire ends?
.
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... how do I attach the wire to the cap and the coil wire ends?
If you still have the OEM ignition wires, use a soldering gun to remove the metal clips from the coil end of the wires. Refit them to the new wires. Props to BMW for fitting these clips as they do the best job. A small smear of dielectric grease will help them "click" into the Dyna coil.
The NGK caps simply screw onto the end of the wires. Not exactly the greatest technique but that's what we've got. Peek into the NGK cap and you'll see a pointy brass screw thread. Center that screw in the plug wire or you'll end up being "screwed" with poor contact.
Hope this explains the fit-up for you.
Monte
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Thanks Monte, will do. Curious as to find out if theres a noticeable difference between the current 5K wires and sparkplugs and the new 0K w/ Iridiums
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Bean Can from E-Bay has bike back on the road, now time to get timing dialed in.