The New And Improved Unofficial R65 Forum V2
Technical Discussion => BMW Technical Q&A, Primarily R65 => Topic started by: rob650 on March 29, 2007, 10:45:04 PM
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Howdy Guys,
I could use some advice from folks who have done what I'm about to do.
Soon I'll be removing the heads to replace some leaky pushrod seals. I've never pulled the heads off any motorcycle before and could use some suggestions on two things....
1. What are some minor "While I have these removed..." jobs related to maintenance that I could do and prep for?.
2. What are some things I should look for that could be trouble?
The bike runs well and has no problems (other than pissing oil on my pant leg). It only gets used about 4 months yearly, but i put 5-7K miles on the bike during those 4 months.
Thanks for your help.
Rob
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Probably the most important thing I can think of is to start a couple weeks early soaking the exhaust nuts with Kroil, PB Blaster, or other high quality penetrant. If you are contemplating pulling the heads I assume you have a proper exhaust nut wrench, if not this soaking period will allow you ample time to procure one.
After soaking the nuts, performing various voodoo rites, sacraficing several small animals, etc, (make sure you call PETA before sacrificing the animals, they love that stuff) try to break loose an exhaust nut. Quite often they will break loose, turn freely for 45 degrees or so, then start to feel tight again. If this happens - STOP. Do not pass go, do not collect anything except something to carefully cut off the $15 exhaust nut. Failure to do so will turn your attempted $15 savings into a $100 plus job to get the exhaust spigot threads replaced.
I'll let somebody else take over because it's past my bedtime...
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Thanks Justin. Does PETA offer a choice of critters, or do you just get whatever they got in the cage that day?
Ill put in an order for the exhaust wrench and PB Blaster.
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I'm sleepy too, but here is some more.
As you disassemble things, keep all of the individual valve train pieces segregated from each other. Apparently it is the smart thing to do, to put them back together with the pieces they started with.
Do you know what parts you will need? Per side:
2 small o-rings for the top cylinder studs
1 large o-ring for the cylinder base (skirt)
2 R65 specific pushrod tube rubbers
1 head gasket
1 valve cover gasket, if needed.
If you haven't renewed your carb-to-head rubbers that you can remember, replace them - they are cheap. And make a note of it in your log book. My "log book" until last year has always been the parts order invoice with a date and mileage on it. I am changing my ways.
Have you been checking your valve clearances on a regular basis, and keeping a log of adjustments needed? At 50k you should be all right, but you never know. Always check the valve clearance BEFORE adjusting them, so you know how much it has changed since your last adjustment (check your log book...). If the gap (esp the exhaust) is getting smaller regularly, you will be looking at a valve job soon. Ignored valve recession leads to very expensive repairs later. Not to mention towing charges, and disappointment in general.
Clean all mating surfaces thoroughly. You can probably get by with out using any gasket sealer anywhere. It is especially hazardous around the top studs, where oil is pumped to the top end for lubrication.
Do you have a torque wrench? Do you have a owners manual? The values and tightening pattern are in that book. It is available from any dealer - special order. 01 41 9 798 291 1979-84 R65 $22.95 (from Capital Cycle (http://www.capitalcycle.com/body_html/catalog.html)).
Well, that is a start. Don't buy your exhaust nut wrench on eBay. That is the expensive route.
Ed Korn (http://www.cycleworks.net/) has about the best price, and is a great guy to deal with.
EXHAUST NUT WRENCH R68 R69 R69s and all AIR COOLED TWINS to 1995
For exhaust systems with the finned aluminum nut holding the pipe onto the head. It is about 2 x 4.75” (50 x 120mm), compact enough to be carried on the bike. Used with a 1/2” ratchet, a torque wrench, or in a pinch, the horror, the horror, a hammer. Renewing the anti-seize on the nut threads occasionally is a good idea..$34 (1 lb)
As Ed says, don't forget the anti-seize on reassembly!
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Use something cute and furry, that really gets the PETA folks wound pretty tight! ;)
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Take pictures.
I have a fear iI'l be removing my heads soon, to fix the dreaded valve seat recession, and would like to know what im getting into. :-/
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You haven't mentioned that yet Mike. Have you been monitoring your valve clearances, and they have been diminishing in between checks?
Any kind of picture record of this job would probably be useful for all BMW Boxer owners, so I'll second that. In fact, my seals have recently (4 years, 30,000 miles ago) begun leaking too. Um, OK, maybe I'm not too worried about it yet. But it's on the list!
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ed, im in the early stages of my suspicions, i set them back in January at Bruces tech Day, and they havent closed up yet. We will see how long they last.
Did you get my PM?
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I am watching my exhaust valves as well. If you guys remember a while back I talked to Bruno, of BMW guru status for cylinder head work here in Canada..he services all of North America though and seems pretty well known........anyway HE told me that the exhaust valves should close up NO MORE than .001" in 3000 miles. So from .008" to .007".
So, there we have a standard to compare to when we monitor clearance changes over distance travelled.
Hope this helps.
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Thanks everybody. I've ordered some parts from Chicago Bmw, and a top end guide from Oak, so I should be good to go. Already started soaking the exhaust threads.
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Don't get too anxious waiting for that order from Chicago... ::)
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Yeah, my last order was placed on 3/1 and still waiting. Seems every order gets a little slower...
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Speaking of Chicago BMW I recently tried this Hammersley BMW at the suggestion of another poster. They have the parts fiche, low pricing and i got my stuff in less than 2 weeks (a lot less) http://www.webparts.com/cycles/
rich
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Hi Rob650,
Something I learned from Nathan and Dean of Boxerworks this last go around on the head re-build about the leaky push rod seals - The metal rings on the push rod tubes that press the pushrod seals into the crank case, over time, slide up on the push rod tube. As a result the seals will start to leak and will continue to leak after new seals are put in place.
This can be fixed two ways Either tap each ring back down a bit and tap weld the ring to the tube or tap them in and put two hose clamps up against the ring after tapping to hold the ring against the push rod seal. This is the source of pushrod tube seal leaks. Dean welded mine. Nathan has two hose clamps on each of his four pushrod tubes on his beater R90 (?R75?) which have aparently been there for twenty years!!! (Adds to the patina of a really cool bike!!)
Where is my camera! Ah ha here is the picture!!
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That's interesting as I thought I had read somewhere that the later bikes already had these silver-soldered on, or something.
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That's interesting as I thought I had read somewhere that the later bikes already had these silver-soldered on, or something.
Me too, but I don't remember what year for that particular change. Lot's of things changed in '81, that's for sure, so maybe that was one as well.
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Bill, what is the purpose of the two hose clamps at the bottom of the pic?
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Well the first steps are done today. Heads are off, and i did mack up one set of exhaust threads so ill have to get that repaired. Would you expect the local dealership to be able to do this, or do I have to ship the head off to somebody special?
I also have a nice even coating of carbon on the pistons and valves. Suggestions to remove it?
Next weekend is cylinder removal to get at the leaky pushrod seals. Thanks for everybodys help.
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Contact San Jose BMW to see about getting the exhaust threads repaired, they repaired mine about 9 years ago, as well as replaced the dreaded '81 model year valve seats and valves.
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I used Bob Grauer, who is also in your neighborhood. rgrauer@earthlink.net 408 248 9732
Here are my photos: http://www.pbase.com/tomfarr/valve_job
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Hi Rob
The only commet I'd add to he above is don't be scared of pulling it apart. BMW 2 valve engines are reall straight forwards mechanically just remember keep all relevent parts together and lable them. I used old butter pots, and mark them left or right inlet and exhaust etc...
I'm pretty sure there is quite a good written instructions on the BMW Club archives on stripping and re-ferbing 2 valve boxer heads.
Oh and one oher comment... Enjoy it, there is something really satisfying about working on your own bike.
Tony
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<snip>
After soaking the nuts, performing various voodoo rites, sacraficing several small animals, etc, (make sure you call PETA before sacrificing the animals, they love that stuff) try to break loose an exhaust nut. <snip>
Might I suggest a Deer as an animal sacrifice? There seem to be too many of them. A rider on his way to the GMR hit one on Friday in north Georgia. (he is OK and only minor dammage to the bike.)
My .02. ;)
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Bill, what is the purpose of the two hose clamps at the bottom of the pic?
Lockhart Oil cooler kit I sniped off eBay. Two clamps to keep the oil in. It works great!!!!
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Deer, shudder. I'm in Eagle Point, a ways out of Medford, where I came down to visit my best friend. I came down in I5 (boring!) but want to go home using the Crater Lake Highway, for even prettier views and nice corners. I'll still be on I5 for a couple hours; the R65 sure loves to cruise at 6 grand (how fast is that?). But my friend warned me that the people up in Shady Cove, on my intended route, feed the deer. Yes, I'll be careful.
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...grump.
I got a half mile or so from my friend's house when the clutch failed. Cable and lever (behind tranny) work fine, but no go in any of the gears. I don't think it's anything like wheel splines, and the input splines looked fine a few months ago so I doubt it's them. I backed the adjustor behind the tranny way out, but there's still no grip. At least I didn't have to walk too far back in riding boots and leather pants, carrying my helmet, jacket, and tank bag.
I'm not far from Hanson's in Medford, but of course they're closed today, so a guy from Budget rental is on his way to pick me up so I can rent a small truck to haul the sucker back home. Right at the moment, if it's not there when I go to pick it up, I won't mind too much. Somebody will have saved my 500 bucks in parts. I'm sure I'll feel differently later, but right now that's where I'm at.
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Dang, Ed, that sux! If it won't shift into any gears and the clutch feels OK maybe the shift pawl spring has decided to "retire"...
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Must be something about Crater Lake that likes trannies. Graham lost his in Prospect, OR just at Crater Lake. It was his input spline. He felt the exact same way you did at the moment. He was ready to take the bike to Medford BMW and leave it there! But I talked him out of it. We Uhauled it back to Montana where we had a trailer.
Hope it's something simple like the spring...
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Simple, but darned expensive. Didn't you just have your box opened up, Ed?
I am really sorry you had to have this happen, Ed. Breaking down is my biggest fear these days. Pretty much the biggest reason I renewed my MOA. I don't think AAA acknowledges bikes, tho I could be wrong.
Have you pulled the throwout bearing assy apart yet?
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Rob, AAA has a service for bikes, I started having their coverage about 3 years ago, I think it's covered under recreational vehicle coverage, about $50 or so a year. Ed , try opening the timing port cover and see if there are any metal shavings or fresh shiny metallic powder visible. The technician that's rebuilding my trans, said the shifter pawl springs are not particularly a strong point in these transmissions. He recommends replacing it whenever the trans is opened up for any reason.
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Roadside service can be added to your Progressive policy for just a couple bux, it was worth it just for the peace of mind.
Might be time for Ed to find a spare tranny, pop it in, and then learn how to get inside these transmissions! I would think that he could just put all of the shims and stuff back where they came from if'n he wasn't changing any bearings. Of course, Ed hasn't reported back with just exactly what his symptoms are so assuming it's the pawl spring might be premature. Hopefully it'll turn out to be something simple.
As soon as I get the motor for my mill I'm going to mill down an old cover (busted clutch arm ear) for use as a shimming plate and jump into the deep end of the pool next time I need a rebuild. :o
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I see a lot of comments about folks needing/getting valve work done. Can you tell just by looking if your valves need attention? During my valve adjustments, I never saw any abnormal valve gappage. (gappage?)
I'd be glad to spend some $ in the future for pre-emptive valve work, but I have a deadline of early June for a bike ride to Nevada.
Thanks Thrang. It's coming apart easily and I've got everything separated and labeled.
Rob Valdez, those pics are great.
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If you have the exhaust off, and the carbs off you can rotate the engine by the allen key bolt that secures the alternator and look at the valves. I did this on replacing the timing chain at about 45,000 miles, and saw that 2/3 's of the valve face worn off! I have the dreaded '81 model year bike.
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Normally the first sign is the clearance starting to close up at shorter and shorter intervals. Never just jump in, loosen the adjuster and adjust the valves - always check the clearance first. Once this is suspected an inspection like Bob mentioned will be "illuminating". The edge of the valve will start to get extremely thin, the exhaust valves in my '81 R100 were almost knife-edge thin at 79k miles...
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Last time I did the vales on the Bimbo (2002) I replaced them with after market ones from Motobins (think they were black diamonds) and they did about 100k before they began to close so were worth the extra couple of quid they cost especially as I suspect its the seats rather than the valves that are on the way out.
Won't know for sure until I get round to stripping the engine down next winter I'd do it now but I've not got time to do it with new beemer to knock into shape and the missus moaning about redecorating the front room :( Dose's anyone actually enjoy decorating?
Ride safe and sane.
Tony.
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I'm pretty sure that's what was used in the heads on my '81 R100. I think they are cheaper over here than the OEM valves...
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I think my exhaust are black diamond, and the intakes were from R60/5/6, both to get the 8mm stems.
I think the R60 valves were cheaper than b.d for the intakes.
rob650 - thank you. The pictures are easy, compared to the talent of Bob Grauer.
He installed new everything.
I suggest you ride your bike for 1000 miles from when you last adjusted them (did you write down your mileage and date from when you adjusted them?), and open the covers and check and see where they are. If they have closed up .001", make a note of it and close it back up for another 1000 miles. Repeat.
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Rob Valdez, Ill make records of valve adjustments from now on...never did before.
I macked up the right side exhaust threads, so that head is at San Jose BMW getting repaired. They did say my exhaust valve looks recessed, so Ill save up my dimes for head work later this year.
This has been a fun project for my first time removing the heads. Now I just gotta screw it all back together and prep for my trip in June.
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Try and put on a couple of thousand miles before your trip.
One, after the bike has about 1000 miles on it, you will want to retorque the heads.
Those readings (before retorquing) cannot be depended on for valve recession readings. Change may have resulted from fasteners loosening and metal expanding/contracting.
Ride another 1000, and check them again. This will tell you what you have for your trip.
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The bike is finally back together this morning. I took a short trip for about 30 miles and it seems tight. No oil leaks or unusual behavior. Started right up after the 2nd crank! It sounds better and idles well. It was time and money well spent and I sure learned a lot about these engines. I'm doing a short ride to the Sierra Nevadas at the end of this week, maybe a 5-700 mile trip.
Thanks everyone for their advice here. It encouraged me to dive in. Ill take it apart again in the fall to get the head work done and get my recessed valves taken care of. Thanks again.
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After following a very spirited (and often heated) discussion on boxerworks about this it seems that some of the "experts" feel that the initial re-torque and adjustment should be at around 60 miles or so, then a check at 500-600. I did my initial retorque/adjustment at about 500 miles and nothing blew up, but you never know...
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Yeah Justin, I just learned that myself, since writing the above post!
I have to admit to not ever having really sought out Oaks' wisdom (he is the one that was prescribing the 60 mile (or so) check for head bolt torque). Can't say why.
But I didn't retorque my heads until about 800 miles after my valve job last fall. Mine didn't blow up, either. The bolts were all real tight, too.
My intake valves had closed up a smidge, but the exhaust valves gap was just where I had set it.
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Got back yesterday from a weekend San Francisco / Reno / Yosemite loop, 800 miles. The bike ran perfectly! Not a leaky drop of oil in sight from the new pushrod seals or anywhere else. I was one happy rider. I gotta say it again, thanks everybody for their advice. Now, If I could just get a month off work.....
By the way, zillions of brother bikers up and down Hwy 395. It was a beautiful weekend for riding.
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Yeah, my seals have not leaked since I replaced them, either!
Now, if I could just get 20 years worth of dirt off the block, you could tell...
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LOL: "could" or "would" Rob? My leaky seals are my excuse for not washing the bike. It will just get dirty again soon.
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I am kind of all or nothing when it comes to this.
I can't do a good enough job to please myself with the engine in the frame, and I have no immediate plans for pulling it, so...