The New And Improved Unofficial R65 Forum V2
Technical Discussion => BMW Technical Q&A, Primarily R65 => Topic started by: RSMike on August 05, 2011, 05:12:30 AM
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No Rob , not another spammer ;), there really is a "points assisted electronic ignition system" named Rooster Booster, maybe some of you have heard of this before?
http://www.roosterignitions.com/
I read a write up on a fitting to a R80/7 here:
http://www.realclassic.co.uk/bmwr8009080500.html
And thought it sounded interesting and a relatively easy/cost effective way to stop points pitting, kind of a halfway house between points and full electronic ignition.
Any one heard of this, tried it, know of similar products, or have an opinion?
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Anyone still running stock points should consider one. I built an ignition amplifier from a kit a couple of years back. It's been completely trouble free.
http://www.bmwr65.org/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1244925188/0#0
For me the advantages were:-
My kit cost £10 so it was very cheap compared to the other aftermarket electronic ignitions.
The satisfaction of building something that has worked well.
There was an improvement in spark energy although it's never going to be as good as the expensive systems unless the coils are also replaced.
In the case of failure reversion to the stock points system can be done in a few minutes at the side of the road. With a bit of thought all the original cable terminations can be retained when fitting the kit so it just a case of moving a few spade connections and refitting the condensor. I carry a little kit the size of a match box that contains a condenser and all the tools I need to do the job.
If anyone is going to fit a Rooster Booster or points amplifier of any type
to a 78 -80 bike there is just one extra thing you will need. The spade termination for the points at the bean can is part of the condensor which must not remain connected in circuit so you will need to modify an old condenser by cutting the wire or make up a new insulated spade termination and clamp assembly from scratch which is what I did.
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Thanks Barry, given the pitting on my points when I changed them out a while back, I am tempted to give the Rooster a try.
May come back for your guidance on the wiring, the rooster site seems to assume a single coil whereas we have two on our BM's, but I assume this is not a problem.
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Interesting. I may try a Rooster Booster Jr on the Montesa. And then there is the Thunderbolt dual points.
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May come back for your guidance on the wiring, the rooster site seems to assume a single coil whereas we have two on our BM's, but I assume this is not a problem.
No problem at all you just treat the two coil in series as one with the link wire in between them. So to fit a Rooster Booster the green wire will go to #1 on the front coil and the yellow wire will go to #15 on the rear coil.
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Thanks again, I have just ordered the 12V negative earth rooster booster (that's the right one isn't it, the fact that we have 6V coils always sounds odd, but I guess two 6v coils in series gives a 12v drop, right?).
One other question, so if I make up my own double spade connector for connecting the points ( I have an old condenser as I fitted a new one when trying to track down my misfire a while back, so I guess I can just clip that off and use), I can then just leave the existing condenser in-situ, albeit with a dangling double spade connector?
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Thanks again, I have just ordered the 12V negative earth rooster booster (that's the right one isn't it, the fact that we have 6V coils always sounds odd, but I guess two 6v coils in series gives a 12v drop, right?).
Yes that's the right one
One other question, so if I make up my own double spade connector for connecting the points ( I have an old condenser as I fitted a new one when trying to track down my misfire a while back, so I guess I can just clip that off and use), I can then just leave the existing condenser in-situ, albeit with a dangling double spade connector?
The problem is you need to make a connection to the points but without a condenser being in circuit because it's not required for the electronic ignition.
To make a connection to the points you need the plastic block with the double sided spade connector which fits in the square hole in the side of the bean can. Just snip the wire off. The block is normally held in place by the clamp on the condenser so you can either fit the old condenser with the wire cut off or fit the new condenser and leave the termination block and wire dangling perhaps with some protection to keep it clean and undamaged.
Another solution would be to cut the clamp section off the old condenser and store your new condenser somewhere safe on the bike. You are gong to need tools to fit it so perhaps it could go in the tool roll.
I did consider breaking the condenser wire in the middle and fitting insulated connectors so the condenser could be left out of circuit but thought the wire was a bit too short to do this successfully.
(http://)
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I did consider breaking the condenser wire in the middle and fitting insulated connectors so the condenser could be left out of circuit but thought the wire was a bit too short to do this successfully.
(http://)
Hmm, that would be a nice solution, I could snip both of my condenser's to have enough wire, the question is will I be brave enough to do that, ;)
I pinged Chris Gamble at Rooster Ignitions and he says he has "many happy BMW owning customers".
I'll do some pics of the installation when I get it and get around to fitting.
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The first "solid state" ignitions for auto use were simple transistor switches, and a "Hall Effect " trigger on the distributor shaft. Chrysler was first to adopt them here. Adding a transistor switch to the BMW is a good idea, "point erosion" from switching coil current is eliminated, BUT, the rubbing block which rides the cam wears, and so the "dwell l angle" must be reset once in a while. That can be done with a "dwell meter" although the factory point gap provides the correct dwell. A better approach would be a system which eliminates the points. Later, "capacitive discharge" systems came along using an inverter to raise the 12 volts to several hundred, giving the coil a good whack. They put extra stress on stock ingntion components and while the sharp pulse worked great at high rpm it didn't work well with lean idle mixtures. The systems in the "coil over plug" setups used today have solved the pulse duration problem. I can remember when the old timers siad the addition of a couple of transistors to an auto ignition system would creat "durability issues". They ought to see what it takes to run a computer controlled, coil over plug system.
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BTW I installed a number of Heathkit CD systems on cars and a couple of boats with points. Those systems retained the points as the trigger. The Heath instructions didn't indicate the capacitor (condenser) needed to be removed and there was a switch on the Heatrhkit box which allowed you to return to "stock" operation at any time. Only trouble I ever had was getting carried away with "rubbing block lubrication" - some got in the points when the distributor warmed up and disrupted the trigger signal . Happened on RT 128 near Boston in rush hour. I pushed the switch to the "stock" position and figured it out later.
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Got my rooster booster and fitted today, seemed pretty straightforward.
(1) Disconnect condensor
(https://bmwr65.org/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi719.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fww198%2Fmiketruss1%2FIMG_1993.jpg&hash=2ee5c607e410d54391eee51478df2289d6ac1773)
(2) Connect up, Points connection off front coil and connect to red wire, Green wire to front coil (#1), Yellow wire to rear coil (#15), Blue wire to battery negative.
(https://bmwr65.org/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi719.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fww198%2Fmiketruss1%2FIMG_2000.jpg&hash=ca1848b367889c73a4c84cba216385214f769166)
(3) Strap unit to frame
(https://bmwr65.org/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi719.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fww198%2Fmiketruss1%2FIMG_1999.jpg&hash=ce7e887337c8b6d4c99c52e140048e3d41ae1820)
Starts up fine and seems to idle better, more evenly, but once I go on the road and open up, she stumbles, and farts along, no power
double checked the connections, Not much else to check, have I missed something obvious?, :-/
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Check connections and make sure it's well grounded. Oh, "Rooster Booster" in my neck-of-the-wods is a brand of energy drink!
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Starts up fine and seems to idle better, more evenly, but once I go on the road and open up, she stumbles, and farts along, no power. double checked the connections, Not much else to check, have I missed something obvious?,
From studying your picture it looks to me like the booster is correctly wired. I don't think it would even run and idle if it wasn't.
You may have a weak spark once the engine is under load but I can't think why unless the booster unit is faulty. Does it run OK when you switch back to points? If so I'd contact Rooster Ignitions to see if they can shed any light on it.
I know you will want to make it work properly first but once it does work here's something else to think about. I can see that the Rooster Booster installation diagram shows the blue earth wire connected directly to the battery. In the case of an airhead I wouldn't do it that way. When for the usual reasons you disconnect the battery earth lead at the speedo clamp bolt (or wherever it might be connected) there remains a risk that there is still an earth path through the Rooster Booster. I think it would be better to just connect it to the nearest frame earth point. I used one of the rear coil clamping screws.
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Thanks Barry, I checked/double checked everything this morning, but still can't really get above about 15mph! :), so I guess I will revert to the old setup this evening, just to verify, It will at least mean I can get the connector in place for the condenser for any future attempts.
Good point on the earth, I figured any earth point should do , but just to be sure, I followed the instructions to the T and connected to the -ve terminal.
I have dropped Rooster ignitions a line in case there are any other troubleshooting tips.
Bean can will have to come off to refit the condenser, which means resetting the timing, PITA, that's what I was hoping to eliminate.
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UPDATE: Response from Chris at Rooster Ignitions ( For Airhead forum read R65 forum):
Mike,
Just followed your thread on the Airhead forum and have seen the many followers and conmentors on the topic.
OK... for your problem....
1., Check that the voltage regulator is not passing any more than 14.4v at ANY throttle settings even momentarily on blipping.
2., With the RB1 fitted the ignition coil response can be received quicker meanung that the ignition timing may need to be slightly retarded. With a distributor this is easy and can be performed with the engine running for fine tuning.
3., If neither of these things cure your issues then please let me know and I will replace the module,
On other issues mentions...
1/. We also produce contactless ignition triggers and total CDI modules with built in CDI ignition coils for custom built solutions and also some batteryless solutions In most practical cases however the RB1 and RBJ solutions are more than adequate and cost effective.
2/. I am well aware that there are other products using the Rooster Booster logo, including energy drinks and chicken feeders. This is the reason the company is called Rooster Ignitions and not Rooster Booster... a tag line that we actually copied from the 1970's Paxo Stuffing TV adverts lol.
Best of luck...
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It does tend to sound like your ignition advance is not advancing at all, or the timing is behaving as quite retarded. Hmm.
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back to stock and running good again, I got one or two backfires near full throttle, but I did have to remove and refit the bean can to get the condenser reconnected and as my only twice used timing light, seems to have already given up the ghost, I had to manually guess/ check timing, looks close but might be a bit off (possibly slightly advanced)
Rooster Ignitions: Check that the voltage regulator is not passing any more than 14.4v at ANY throttle settings even momentarily on blipping.
Next I decided to check voltage based on the advice above from Rooster, I'm assuming measuring voltage at the battery will show whats coming through from the regulator ? :-[, If thats the correct way to do it, then I have to say, What Regulator?, As I increased revs up to 6K the voltage just kept going up, I made it to 17v :o
Besides the rooster booster, hopefully nothing else has been damaged, I guess I am going to be needing a new regulator.
Anyone else had this issue?
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If you are reading 17v across the battery then your regulator is either not working or you have a wiring issue! But, I bet your lights are nice and bright!
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Mike
Your regulator if original will be the mechanical type. If you are interested in trying to adjust it I have done it sucessfully following Snowbums instructions. http://www.bmwr65.org/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1299944454/0#0
On the other hand if it's failed altogether new electronic regulators are cheap and you can buy any nominal 14 volt regulator with the correct 3 spade terminations. They are really very simple. All voltage regulators have 3 connections D+ D- and DF (These designations are historical and stand for Dynamo + Dynamo - and Dynamo Field)
D- brown wire connects to one of the alternator brushes which is also earthed
D+ blue wire connects to the diode board and then the gen light
Df black wire connects to the other alternator brush
http://www.bmwr65.org/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1298784311/4#4
If you have been running long with a faulty regulator the battery if it's a wet type is sure to need topping up and yours bulbs if they survived will likely be blackened on the inside and will have lower than usual light output when back to 14 volts.
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Thanks Barry, I suppose in retrospect a warning sign about two weeks was when I was fitting the screen, I decided to throw in a new H4 "blue light" headlamp bulb as the existing one seemed rather yellow, These "blue light" ones are not really blue but I find they do give a crisper white light, I fitted one to the triumph last year
Well after one ride the blue light bulb's dipped beam was blown ( I always ride with at least dipped beam on) and around the same time my tail light blew also, When I stuck the old headlamp bulb back and it has been fine since, I just thought the blue bulb was a dodgy one, and put the tail light down to age
If I had a variable DC supply handy I would take a go at adjusting the old one, but I don't and as you say a replacement seems to be not outrageous £27, from my friend James Sherlock, I assume I don't need a high output regulator (£47)?
I have not physically looked at the regulator yet, Is there any other logical explanation fort he uncontrolled voltage or should I just go ahead and order a new regulator
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I assume I don't need a high output regulator (£47)
A "high output" regulator is just set at a slightly higher voltage say 14.5 volts instead of 14.0 volts. There is no excuse for it to cost so much more as it's the same circuit with just a simple adjustment or different value component. They should really be called a high set point regulator but that doesn't sound expensive.
A high output regulator is nice if you do a lot of short journeys but given Rooster Ignitions comments about max 14.4 volts you might want to be wary.
For the alternator to be giving full voltage output there must be a permanent rather than switching voltage on the DF terminal which can only be due to a faulty regulator or short somewhere between D+ and DF wiring. The short seems unlikely though. Any chance of borrowing a regulator to carry out a test.
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Thanks Barry, appreciate the insight & suggestions, given limited time, I have gone ahead and ordered a new regulator from Sherlocks (standard electronic)
BTW, here is an update from Rooster Ignitions
We manufacture the RB1 to allow operation at low battery voltages in case of emergencys and therefore your module will continue to operate at around 8v or even lower if your ignition coils still pass a spark. As a result of this the high end of the range is no where near as tolerent and 14.5 is about it.
What then happens is that the main power resistor gets so hot the solder melts... this is what was causing your misfires and bad running. As it cools and the solder solidifies the module continues to work again. It is possible for the main power resistor to fall out of the pcb but this kind of acts like a fuse and stops any other damage.
The chances are, your module is ok.
The only other cause of this problem is when the ignition coil or ignition coil array has a low impedance... we recommend 2-4 ohms althouth slightly higher will not hurt the module.
If you ever suspect your ignition coils, simply fit a single dual output 12v ignition coil.
Be-aware however that the high voltage will be harming the rest of your electrical system, especially your battery and your points, condensor and coils. It may also cause premature bulb failure as well.
This last point might explain why I had to replace a coil on the bike a while ago, I just hope that's not happened again (thinking about the couple of backfires I experienced at full throttle yesterday evening), probably also explains why the last set of points was in such bad shape
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Update:
Well boys and girls here is a lesson of what can happen to a 2 month old battery when its having a couple of volts too much charge applied, :o, seriously depleted electrolyte levels, I need to get some distilled water fast!, but if its that low do I need acid as well?
(https://bmwr65.org/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi719.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fww198%2Fmiketruss1%2FIMG_2004.jpg&hash=669448fb53b6dc446d281ed6a1d05d692302f4d7)
and here is the accused:
(https://bmwr65.org/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi719.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fww198%2Fmiketruss1%2FIMG_2005.jpg&hash=9af0bb9cb82e4c5ee24ed0546368be72fc933420)
Contacts do not look that bad, while I'm waitinng for a new regulator, I I wonder if I could do some testing with an old battery and optimate charger.....
(https://bmwr65.org/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi719.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fww198%2Fmiketruss1%2FIMG_2007.jpg&hash=bae1859312a5ffb62e21327a234a9f8738f5f31c)
More money but as I have doubts about what it also may hav edone to 30 year old coils, am considering this:
http://www.bmwbayer.de/Power-Ignition-set-for-Contact-braeker.html
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Been quiet on this for a while, got the new regulator in a couple of days from Sherlocks, but decided to bite the bullet and invest in the Silent Hektik double coil (for points boxer's) , finally arrived yesterday and mounts nicely where the rear coil used to be.
So starting to put things back together, I guess I will try to get everything up and running without the rooster ignition box first.
Here is the new set up:
(https://bmwr65.org/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi719.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fww198%2Fmiketruss1%2FIMG_2014.jpg&hash=e49229c458b6023620576d444e5024cdf1eeeee3)
After I took this shot I rigged up a triple spade connector (using the spade connectors from an old coil) to connect the all three of the former front coil connectors, basically using the black/yellow wire to route the black wires to the -ve terminal on the new rear mounted double coil. The green/blue wire from the old rear coil then goes to the +ve terminal on the new double coil.
To the leccy experts (i.e. Barry, :) ) does this sound ok?
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does this sound ok?
Guess you are using the black/yellow link wire because the correct wire is short ?.
In principle to replace twin coils with a single dual output coil:
Connect the +12V green/blue wire from Terminal #15 on the rear coil to one terminal on the new coil
and the front coil Terminal #1 black wire from the points together with the tacho black wire to the other terminal on the new coil.
The new coil may not have terminal markings as polarity often doesn't matter on a dual ouput type.(http://)
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Thanks Barry, the diagram helps ( I know you posted it before, I should just have gone back and checked), I think it confirms I should be OK, here is what I have now ( The silent hektik coil does have +ve and -ve terminal markings).
Yes, using the black yellow as the black leads not long enough to reach back to the coil.
(https://bmwr65.org/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi719.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fww198%2Fmiketruss1%2FModCoil.gif&hash=d724640ac81b32299176764a7ae944fa61a0f510)
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It has to work!
BTW I had some how missed your post with the battery and regulator pics.
The battery should only have needed water not acid. Did it ever recover ?
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It has to work!
BTW I had some how missed your post with the battery and regulator pics.
The battery should only have needed water not acid. Did it ever recover ?
Yes, just topped it up with distilled water and recharged, seems to be holding charge fine, though no load applied yet.
The original battery that was in the bike when I got it is a maintenance free type though also seems to have normal electrolyte. I managed to pry off a cover and get access to the cells, there are no proper filling holes, but I managed to get distilled water in through the vents with a syringe( it was also seriously depleted), that has also charged up and is holding charge too!
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It has to work!
Confirmed, it does, :), had difficulty starting the bike, but tank had been off for two weeks with fuel line open, Once she started she ran well, checked Voltage, now clipped at 14.04V, did a short run and she ran well.
I need to check timing, but also now realized that with the new double coil that only has two solitary spade connectors, I am going to need some piggyback connectors before trying the rooster ignition again.
Are there any piggyback connectors that just create two spades?, The only ones I can find are these:
(https://bmwr65.org/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.ebayimg.com%2F00%2F%24%28KGrHqF%2C%21ikE4s%28-oIFhBON8Ytjbb%21%7E%7E0_12.JPG&hash=e53f579a08029e3d14ae28f3e87ed7fbc518ccb1)
If it was possible not to cut wires I would prefer it.