The New And Improved Unofficial R65 Forum V2
Technical Discussion => BMW Technical Q&A, Primarily R65 => Topic started by: bbell1 on February 20, 2011, 10:42:58 AM
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Thanks for all the great insight and info.
Last Tuesday I picked up a 1984 R65 that had been left outside for the last 8 years. Never having worked on a bike before this was my chance. By Friday I was down to the frame and my garage is a parts yard. I'm sure I'll be asking many questions as this proceeds.
First question - there's a lot of oxidation on the engine, etc. What's the best way to remove it? Bead blast? Enginebright? Kryptonite?
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Start with the mlldest cleaners, such as Simple Green, and a Scotchbrite pad. It's a chore, for sure.
There's an el-cheapo DIY soda blaster that works well even though it generates a huge mess.
http://www.aircooledtech.com/tools-on-the-cheap/soda_blaster/
My 1983 fork lowers; before and after:
(https://bmwr65.org/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi196.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Faa1%2Fmontmil%2FBMW%2520R65%2FPB150002.jpg&hash=db8f87f3ca849ae09d7ce7f66be63dccaed4ad0c)
Good luck on your project.
Monte
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I used to use a auto whitewall cleaner called bleachwite on my engine.it really cleaned them up so they looked soda blasted.
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1200 grit sandpaper, metal polish, a bag of rags, a bucket of water, elbow grease and a load of time. ;D
Great DIY soda blaster link BTW.
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I'll try them all. Thanks.
Any preferred vendors for cables and a brake master cylinder?
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Motobins in England has good prices, especially on their in-house brands. On many items they offer OEM and their own. http://www.motobins.co.uk/
Just click on the "R Series 2 Valve Twin" on the left, and use the appropriate drop-down fields.
They have good rates on shipping, and it is fast, too. They also have a convenient currency conversion program at the bottom of each page.
Chicago BMW offers a 20% discount off of retail prices. I think most of us have found that orders with them come in faster if placed on the phone rather than using their online system. They are closed on Mondays. http://chicagobmwmotorcycle.com/store/
For consumables like oil filters and crush washers, I use Hucky's in Florida regularly. He does not cater to R65s specifically, but many parts crossover between the engines. He just may not have Type 248-specific items, like pushrod tube seals, exhaust systems, etc., which are different than Type 247 (Non- R45/65). http://www.bmwhucky.com/index.html
Then there is Max BMW in the NE http://www.maxbmwmotorcycles.com/fiche/fiche.aspx
Bob's in the DC area http://www.bmwbobs.com/
And do you have RealOEM online microfiche bookmarked, yet? http://www.realoem.com/bmw/select.do?kind=M&arch=1
MaxBMW and others offer the same service, as well.
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Thanks Rob.
I noticed the serial # on the frame, 6381502. I plugged it into RealOEM and it came back as a '79. The last 7 digits of the VIN # come back as a '84. There is a metal plate on the engine that reads 05 841211 and EBM 09 8042A2. Any ideas if there is a date hidden in there?
It was suggested to me that I could dispense with emission gadgetry in the airbox. Any thoughts on this?
I appreciate all the input!
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Several visual clue say the bike is not a 79 - carbs seat style and airbox are all 81 - on
but
6381502 is a March 79 serial number
http://www.bmbikes.co.uk/chassispages/enginechassis650.htm
Have you got an engine number stamped just above the oil dipstick. This would originally have been the same as the frame number. My guess is yours will be different.
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There should be a seven digit number stamped into the engine case at the oil dip stick opening, that would give you a year of manufacture for the engine .
The bike may have had an engine change in it's past, anything is possible with 30 year old motorcycles !!!!!!
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I took a look and unfortunately there doesn't seem to be any number near the dip stick opening.
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If the bike was in a severe crash, it may have been rebuilt with a '79 frame.
I know the flat on the lower R-H side that you are talking about. But no, I don't know what any of that information means.
The centerstand is from an early model, too.
There are basically 3 generations of R65s:
1) 1978-1980 (1979 being the 1st year for N. America)
2) 1981-1984 (updated engine & ignition. Different master cylinder, centerstand, glovebox & seat, etc.)
3) 1985-1993 (monoshock, same frame & outfitting as the R80 & R100)
A lady by the name of Noémi Berry wrote up what is probably the most definitive history of the bikes:
http://www.nebcom.com/noemi/moto/r65faq.html
http://www.nebcom.com/noemi/moto/r65lsfaq.html
I think most of the 1st gen had "flat top" carbs, and after that they all had dome tops, like yours.
This bike (I forget who's it is) is a '79 or '80. Notice the different carbs, airbox and seat tail-section.
Obviously the paint job is custom, and the fork gaiters are added.
(https://bmwr65.org/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.pbase.com%2Ftomfarr%2Fimage%2F127315792%2Fsmall.jpg&hash=b36639e2b96a568b00df4619800fe91a1aab03b8) (http://www.pbase.com/tomfarr/image/127315792/large)
Click on it for a larger image.
I would be curious to see a close-up picture of your dipstick/oil fill area. Have you scrubbed on it, there? There could be so much corrosion that you can't see it, yet.
You might also find this page helpful: http://www.roadkill.com/~davet/moto/bmw.html
On the subject of removing the air injection plumbing, there is much written up about it. Most are in favor of removal, I think. Check out all of the Google hits, and decide for yourself:
http://www.google.com/#sclient=psy&hl=en&q=bmw+airhead+removing+air+injection&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=&psj=1&bav=on.1,or.&fp=18e4c0cc530c3619
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I have removed all the air injection plumbing from both the '81 and '83 R65s in my care.
Hucky's supplied the correct BMW drain plugs and crush washers needed to neatly seal the ports in the cylinder heads. Owner Hans Lowe -a really nice gentleman- does not list many parts for R65s but my telephone calls and emails to him usually turn up what I'm looking for.
http://www.bmwhucky.com/index.html
I found some rubber plugs at the big box home store that perfectly fit the air box openings. A small dab of black silicone adhesive insures they remain in place.
Monte
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Thanks guys.
Here's a shot of the area around the dip stick:
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The clean-up work looks like it is coming right along!
This is what I meant:
(https://bmwr65.org/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.pbase.com%2Ftomfarr%2Fimage%2F132796452%2Fmedium.jpg&hash=b6c6bb6723e8a8e8287f033ff256908fa2bffbec)
And I think the timing-hole plugs fit the openings in the air-box after the plumbing has been removed.
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Thanks,
Looks like I'm without.
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Bummer.
When you get the bike up & running, be sure to check your valve clearances every 1000 miles or so for the first year, to check for deficiencies in the metallurgy. You may want to get a valve-job done before you start putting serious miles on it, if the exhaust valves show signs of closing up rapidly.
Does it have electronic ignition? A single coil, rather than two individual ones? Give us a shot of the arrangement of the electricals under the tank, from the right-hand side. Since this appears to be a 2nd gen engine in a 1st gen frame, there must have been some creative re-assembly done. That was another significant change between the two.
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Looks like I'm without.
Take a read of this http://bmwmotorcycletech.info/IDnumbrs.htm Snowbum explains that the engine number was moved away from the dip stick area around 83 - 84 and also that it was not necessarily any longer the same as the frame number.
This would seem to date your engine much later than the frame.
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Yes - I hadn't thought of that. I knew they stopped stamping the number there at some point, but I didn't remember when. It could be from a mono-shock R65, or perhaps not even a R65 engine! That could be (sort of) easily verified by measuring the width of the engine, or at least one side.
The R65 is a shorter stroke than the Type 247s, making the engine narrower overall.
Measuring one side of my 650 engine is 10 1/4" from the crankcase to the outside of the valve cover.
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One more of many questions to follow:
I'd like to repaint the electrical housing (my name). If possible, I'd prefer doing it as a separate piece away from the engine. I wanted to ask what I'm getting myself into if I pull that unit off - lots of connections? timing belt stuff? Anything? Or does it slide on and off and easily, correctly, reinstalled?
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It comes off w/o too much fuss, plus the fantastic advantage of being able to examine the timing chain/gears and tensioner for wear!
Just be warned that it will expose openings into the crankcase into which bits can fall. Then you have to drop the oil pan to retrieve them.
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Here's some shots from the dismantling that might help.
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Thanks Rob, I did find a lightly etched number on the transmission box, top right side as your article suggested. It reads Z 103641. A digit short and no obvious relevance. Will do as you suggested and take the plunge with the housing. Carefully...
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Don't be surprised when you go to remove some of those socket-hex fasteners - a couple of them are "female" caps instead of "male" screws. It really caught me off-guard the first time.
Do you have a set of hex bit sockets? These are some of my oldest & most-loved tools:
http://www.sears.com/shc/s/p_10153_12605_00934448000P?keyword=hex+head+socket+wrench&filter=storeOrigin|Sears&mv=tr
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I'm not sure how much has to be unhooked. In trying to pull off the silver cap/stator it seems to be hooked to something in the vicinity of the D- symbol. That electrical connection, white with 3 wires, doesn't look like it would disconnect without undoing the solder anyway.
Also... I'm assuming the ignition sensor (can at bottom) can stay on and won't interfere? Diode board?
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All the electrical connects just pull off though they may be tight.
The alternator has to come off next . Stator is easy enough but you need a special hardened screw or pin to remove the rotor. Lots about this on the net. I like this one By Joe Cuda for the illustrations which help explain what is happening when you remove the rotor Allen screw which comes out in 2 stages - first it releases from the threads in the crank and then from the threads in the rotor.http://www.airheads.org/content/view/194/98/
Removing the diode board might be a good idea too as there is a crankshaft bearing in the cover and you may need to use some heat to get the cover off. The ignition bean can could come off for the same reason. Just 2 Allen screws anyway.
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Thanks Barry. From what I read it seems the stator coils and housing get pulled straight off together. All the electrical connections did come off. i was just worried about the one circled below because that's where the cover seems to be reluctant to move vertical.
Should the coil slide up easily or might it need a little persuasion. I'm just reluctant to pull off the cover and damage the coil in anyway. That would be quite a bit more work then just painting the cover exterior which is all I'm shooting for.
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I would try tapping the stator case with a small rubber hammer.
To do the job properly, you really need to remove everything from the timing cover.
Again, this would allow you an excellent opportunity to examine the timing parts. Not a bad thing to do for a bike with an unknown history.
It would make painting the timing cover much easier, and give you more satisfactory results.
I would buy a tool to remove the rotor. They are not expensive, and will save you A LOT of grief, as opposed to buying a hardened fastener and cutting it up. If it breaks in there in the removal process, you have a real mess on your hands.
Properly done, it is no big deal. But the rotor does pop-off rather unexpectedly, so be ready!
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In for a penny....
The cover is still connected underneath, right at the edge where the D- is printed in the cover. Lifts up easily on the opposite side but a definite connection right where the wire comes down from the 3 tabbed, soldered connection as circled in the picture above. Are these usually un-soldered to continue?
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No, the coil stays inside the cover when it is removed, so the wires can stay in place.
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Saved me. Finally deciphered the parts, where to pry, where tap and I have it off. My thanks for both your persistence. Have to learn this new language!
I appreciate the insights.
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And the bean can is easy. It is keyed so that it can only connect to the camshaft the proper way.
You might want to put a mark on the timing case and the bean can with a Sharpie so you can get it back in the approximately correct position on reassembly.
And the bean can has an o-ring as an oil seal. You may want to consider renewing that, while you are at it.
http://www.realoem.com/bmw/showparts.do?model=0364&mospid=51897&btnr=12_0776&hg=12&fg=05
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Bill, I have a photo essay in the Photo Gallery that may possibly provide you with some assistance in removing the timing case cover.
http://www.suraklyn.com/r65_forum_gallery/thumbnails.php?album=35
Monte
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That is a great gallery, Monte! Too bad you can't vote for a gallery. I had to go back through them all so I could give them all a 5-star rating! :D
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[movedhere] General Announcements [move by] Rob Valdez 79 R65.
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Here's some shots from the dismantling that might help.
Oh, I had not noticed the BMW OEM Crack-O-Matic ignition coil in the photos.
Get thee a Dyna ignition coil, muy pronto y ride happy.
Monte
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05 841211 and EBM 09 8042A2. Any ideas if there is a date hidden in there?
A bit late and maybe academic interest only as this does not explain Billb's engine codes. It did get me thinking about month and year though.
Billb's numbers (05 841211 and EBM 09 8042A2) don't look much like that suggested below and the numbers on my own engine are different again so BMW must have changed the numbering system more than once.
A wild guess I suppose but perhaps Bill your engine is
from the first set of numbers a May 84 build Serial No 1211
or
from the 2nd set of numbers a Sept 80 build serial number 42A2
(http://)
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Nice find, Barry, but I think I like the 7-digit number better.
And Billb says his numbers & letters are as follows:*
There is a metal plate on the engine that reads 05 841211 and EBM 09 8042A2. Any ideas if there is a date hidden in there?
I don't see his code following those rules. I'd like to see a close-up picture of his panel.
*oops! I just read your post, closer! ;)
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When I looked at my panel Rob which is below the left cylinder the numbers didn't follow those rules and didn't look anything like Billb's either. The only thing I could recognise is "248" which is our short stroke engine type.
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Rob, here's a shot of the plate.
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yeah - like Barry said - it seems the Type 248s don't follow the guidelines laid out in that engine build code article. :(
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I kinda feel like France. I'm always there when I need you....
Progress and questions. I am now resigned to the fact that every part of this bike has to go and be taken off at least 4 times. An example would be... Waiting for parts so decided to put the rear fender on. Finished recovering the seat. Test fit the seat. Latches closed. Latch frozen even after removal, cleaning and reinstalling (not that i necessarily did it right...) Need to get the locking mechanism/latch off. Need to take off the fender. Dismantle the latch. Release the seat. Repeat. At least one gets to know the parts intimately.
Some questions.
As part of the electricals along the backbone, at the very rear is a relay without anything plugged in. Any ideas on use? Extra? Mod?
(http://)
Also, when rewiring the ignition switch, one wire placement that doesn't seem to be listed is this one:
(http://)
I think the wiring schematic I saw had 4 slots, mine seems to have 5 so I might just have them in the wrong places.
Ironically, the next question is about an orphan lead down by the coil on the left side with similar wire colors. Also different connector types.
(http://)
Part of this is probably because I bought a replacement right handle control unit with master cylinder off ebay. The one I received is different than my original. The original had a cable that matches the connector by the coil and I'm guessing it works the rear light?. With the new rig, there's no separate cable for this, only the main cable to the white bus.
(http://)
(http://)
(http://)
(http://)
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"As part of the electricals along the backbone, at the very rear is a relay without anything plugged in. Any ideas on use? Extra? Mod?"
The light blue color cube? That's an accessory plug rather than a relay. You're fortunate to have the OEM rubber cover still in situ.
"Also, when rewiring the ignition switch, one wire placement that doesn't seem to be listed is this one:
I think the wiring schematic I saw had 4 slots, mine seems to have 5 so I might just have them in the wrong places."
Okay, I'm working from memory here, but when I replaced the steering head bearings and races on my 1983 R65, it was necessary to remove just about everything from the fuel tank forward. IIRC,
my ignition switch had an open terminal but checking the Clymer manual showed me the correct hookup. Thank goodness for color tracer wire. Gotta manual?
Hoping some of this info answers a few of your questions.
Monte
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This is where it really pays to have a owners manual (still available).
The diagram in the book has the terminal numbers, but I can't read them on my own scan, nor on the PDF that is in our FAQ section.
If you have a book, you should have your answer there.
http://www.motobins.co.uk/displayfinal.php?q=01462&go=GO
(https://bmwr65.org/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.motobins.co.uk%2Flibrary%2F01462.jpg&hash=0cb3d6e5aad17e2e23cc94afd3a63b8a0736cdb9)
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Now that's ironic... Received my manual today. Was sent the wrong one so will have the right one shortly.
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i kinda figured out the different right handle bar setups and took the master cylinder off the ebay one and put it on the original. The bought one was a Magura (?) rather than stock stuff. It also had two throttle cables right out of the throttle housing rather than single to double.
Now the wiring...
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It also had two throttle cables right out of the throttle housing rather than single to double.
First gen's had two cables coming out of the housing. The single w/the splitter was a '81 change.
Magura has always been the OEM supplier for handlebars, perches, grips etc.
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Not sure what the part # for this is...! OEM?
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...The bought one was a Magura (?) rather than stock stuff. It also had two throttle cables right out of the throttle housing rather than single to double...
Many peeps -including me- would rather have the twin cables setup as you describe, rather than fight with the junction box hidden under the tank. This 1-into-2 throttle cable mish mash was supposed to be an improvement? [smiley=thumbdown.gif]
Monte
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A favor. I wonder if anyone can give me the height/placement of each of the bumpers on the underside of the seat. The seat i bought on eBay is missing all the bumpers (as well as the rear "hook/hinge"...)
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Billb
Not sure which seat you have but on a 78 - 80 seat there are 10 bumbers in total. 8 are 17.6mm dia x 10mm deep and the two larger bumpers at the front are 17.6mm dia x 15mm deep.
Hope that helps.
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I have A BUNCH of these bumpers on hand. But I am at work and I can't measure them right now. If the majority of what I have are 10mm ones, don't order any! You can have some of mine.
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Rob,
You are way cool and generous! You helped me tremendously!
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I have 6 of the 10mm, 2 of the 15mm and one 5mm (for which I could not find a use on any of the fiche...). These are all brand-new.
I have 6 more of the 5mm out in the garage that look to be hardened with age, but I don't know where they came from? They are definitely not new.
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Thanks Rob and Barry for your generous info and time. I'll inventory the one's I have and see what I'm short.
Received a tank yesterday and it has a different set-up though this was half expected (thanks Chock(. Here's a picture of the original and the new/used blue one. I prefer the new to the original and wanted to know if someone can tell me if they've ever modified their frame to fit these larger tanks? This new tank requires a bar above the rear of the frame to bolt to rather than the wire loop. Pictures?