The New And Improved Unofficial R65 Forum V2
Technical Discussion => BMW Technical Q&A, Primarily R65 => Topic started by: montmil on February 16, 2011, 06:15:27 PM
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OK. No lame excuses. No mercy.
After several short rides over the past few days, I rode the '81 R65 to work this morning only to discover, after work this afternoon, the dreaded "click, click, click" as the starter just wouldn't turn over the engine. Not enough long rides nor time on the Tender to keep the battery happily charged.
No bigee. Rolled it into the shop at work and grabbed a battery and cables. In my big rush to get home, I wasn't paying full attention and cross-connected; making a positive-to-negative connection with the unmarked jumper cables and then hit the starter. Well, shoot. What's that smell? Something's getting warm and very toasty. And the starter just isn't turning over. OMG...
I disconnected the negative battery cable at the transmission ground bolt. I did see the oil pressure light still lightly glowing even with the ignition switch off. BTW, head and tail lights remain operational after my foul up.
The bike will spend the night in the shop at work. I'll drive the truck and take my ramp to get Blackie home tomorrow morning. The weekend is looking busy already.
In the meantime, I'm looking for suggestions as to where to begin sorting out this issue. Starter relay? Then where away? Any ideas or prior experiences will be graciously accepted. I do expect to have to pull apart the wiring harness wrapping for wire inspections.
Looking for some ideas as to what the inspection sequence should be. I'm feeling pretty dumb about this.
At least the '83 R65 is available. The weather is mid to upper seventies with CAVU.
Monte
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I'd check the battery cables for condition .
A general inspection of the wires, fuses .
Battery may be damaged, hard to say until you try to start it .
I'd say remove the battery from the bike and charge it up, see what kind of voltage it has afterwards .
Hopefully if you have any damage, it's limited to the battery area .
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Thanks, Bob. I'll do that this weekend and report my findings.
Monte "This Month's Senior Moment" Miller
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Monte
I'm trying to think what might have been damaged by the reverse connection. I wonder if the electronic ignition module would have been fried. Often electronic stuff has polarity protection designed in.
What you might consider doing in general is to pull all the fuses and with a newly charged battery installed, energise one circuit at a time to see what works and what doesn't. Could be done without the starter cable connected to eliminate the possibility of really big amps being pulled.
Just a thought... one guy who is very sharp on anything electrical and would know the answer to this - Snowbum.
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That "smell" is worrying could be youve fried the starter solenoid, the motor its self shouldnt be a problem with reverse polarity.
Best of Luck.
Lou
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Just a thought... one guy who is very sharp on anything electrical and would know the answer to this - Snowbum.
I'm an ABC member and have received several nice responses from fellow ABC'ers. Expect da 'Bum to chime in anytime now.
Thanks for your thoughts, Barry.
Monte
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I'm an ABC member and have received several nice responses from fellow ABC'ers. Expect da 'Bum to chime in anytime now.
I've been reading them too and while some good ideas are coming up I don't think anyone so far has actually experienced your problem 1st hand so we are all theorising to try and help you. Lets hope Snowbum or some of the other gurus have had 1st hand experience otherwise by the time you have this fixed Monte you could become the world expert !
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otherwise by the time you have this fixed Monte you could become the world expert !
Take notes, Monte! ;)
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UPDATE: Saturday afternoon
Battery was a bit low on voltage check so plugged in the BatteryTender on Friday evening and brought voltage up to spec.
Removed the fuel tank and began a visual inspection and "sniff test" of the wiring harness. Checked all fuses and they're good. I had earlier converted to the blade-style automotive fuses. Did not see nor 'smell' anything to indicate heat damage. Have not, as yet, unwrapped the wiring harness but this is on my high-probability list.
Reattached the battery negative cable. Noted the still glowing OP bulb. Bothersome. Pulled the spade fitting off the OP sender and the light went off. Wiggled and sniffed relays and regulator. Nothing noted.
Replaced the LED-with/resistor OP bulb but the bulb remains lit even with the ignition switch off. With ignition switch off and brown/ground wire connected to the OP sender, I checked the power lead to the OP light and noted a voltage reading of approx 0.66 volts. With OP wire removed from the sender, the voltage read was approx 0.24 volts.
Toggled the run/stop switch to the 'off' position and the OP bulb turns off. Hum... Pretty strange.
With the tank still off the bike but fuel remaining in the carb bowls, I switched on the ignition, pulled the enrichener lever, rolled the dice and hit the start button. Engine fired up without any hesitation and ran as normal.
Quick happy dance, then shut down as the bowls emptied.
Next, I plan to pull off the start/run-stop switch and look for evidence of arcing or any problems inside the switch body. Will run continuity checks as am able to do.
Previously, I have been noticing the need to "Tender" the battery more than the other R65 so I'm wondering if there has not been an undetected voltage leak going on for some time. May be unrelated as the constantly 'on' OP lamp is a new anomaly.
That's the current situation with the bike. Very pleased that the start system functions. Wondering if there may be a smoked wire inside the main harness that has damaged the insulation on the OP wiring thus causing a short to ground... ? As mentioned earlier in this post, I do think it a good idea that I open up the harness wrapping for a clearer inspection.
I remain very open to ideas and suggestions. Thanks in advance for directions in diagnosis.
Monte
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Personally I`d call an Excorsist.
Sorry couldnt resist that ;D
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Personally I`d call an Excorsist. Sorry couldnt resist that ;D
Excorsist? Say, what?
ex·or·cist
noun
1. A person who expels an evil spirit or demon.
2. In some religions an exorcist is a person who is believed to be able to cast out the devil or other demons. A priest, a monk, a healer, a shaman or other specially prepared or instructed person can be an exorcist.
dic-tio-nary
noun
1. A reference book containing an alphabetical list of words with information about them.
Sorry. I couldn't resist that, either ;D
Monte
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Personally I`d call an Excorsist. Sorry couldnt resist that ;D
Excorsist? Say, what?
ex·or·cist
noun
1. A person who expels an evil spirit or demon.
2. In some religions an exorcist is a person who is believed to be able to cast out the devil or other demons. A priest, a monk, a healer, a shaman or other specially prepared or instructed person can be an exorcist.
dic-tio-nary
noun
1. A reference book containing an alphabetical list of words with information about them.
Sorry. I couldn't resist that, either ;D
Monte
I would say Hunsta does not use a browser that incorporates an automatic spell-checker, or he simply ignored it.
Friends don't let friends use Internet Explorer...
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UPDATE: Sunday morning
Starter button and run/stop switch all in primo condition.
Time to consider opening up the wiring harness and trace all wires coming off the battery plus any adjacent wires that may have been toasted.
Got my nose really close to the voltage regulator for a healthy sniff. Maybe my imagination but I thought I got a whiff of "burn". Could swap in the regulator from the '83 for a test/check.
Monte
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Got my nose really close to the voltage regulator for a healthy sniff. Maybe my imagination but I thought I got a whiff of "burn". Could swap in the regulator from the '83 for a test/check.
Not too bad if that's all that's gone Monte.
Various substitute voltage Regulators around and if yours is the early electronic type with discrete components it might even be possible to repair it if you can identify the component that's blown.
Your getting closer to being the world expert by the day !
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Got my nose really close to the voltage regulator for a healthy sniff. Maybe my imagination but I thought I got a whiff of "burn". Could swap in the regulator from the '83 for a test/check.
Not too bad if that's all that's gone Monte.
Various substitute voltage Regulators around and if yours is the early electronic type with discrete components it might even be possible to repair it if you can identify the component that's blown.
Your getting closer to being the world expert by the day !
I plan to open the regulator -believe it's electromechanical rather than solid state- and see if the components are burned/damaged. I can see nothing to indicate wiring harness damage but will open it up to confirm if yes or no.
Checking wiring diagrams and re-reading the Clymer manual, I'm also beginning to consider a diode issue within the rectifier/diode board. A damaged diode might be the source of the small electrical "leak" that's keeping the OP lamp glowing with the ignition switched off.
For now, I keep the battery ground cable detached until I need to check circuits. Engine starts and runs fine. Will also check voltage charge going into the battery with engine running. This could also help diagnose any regulator problems.
Monte
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Personally I`d call an Excorsist. Sorry couldnt resist that ;D
Excorsist? Say, what?
ex·or·cist
noun
1. A person who expels an evil spirit or demon.
2. In some religions an exorcist is a person who is believed to be able to cast out the devil or other demons. A priest, a monk, a healer, a shaman or other specially prepared or instructed person can be an exorcist.
dic-tio-nary
noun
1. A reference book containing an alphabetical list of words with information about them.
Sorry. I couldn't resist that, either ;D
Monte
I would say Hunsta does not use a browser that incorporates an automatic spell-checker, or he simply ignored it.
Friends don't let friends use Internet Explorer...
Hey I come from a rural town in OZ. We gotta rub 2 Koala`s together to get the static electricity to run my computer. To me a spell checker was my 6th grade teacher. But nice of you guys to point out my shortcomings. ;D
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This post is also in the Trading Post section:
WTB Diode Board
While working through the diagnostics and double checking, I'm pretty sure at least one of the two smaller diodes in the diode board/rectifier of the 1981 R65 is toast. I plan to swap in the board from the 1983 R65 as a confirmation test but in the meantime, I'm in the market for a replacement used diode board.
If any R65ers have one laying about and gathering dust, please PM me or email. Thanks.
Monte Miller
montmil@verizon.net
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Had to lay off the R65 for a few days. Pesky days when ya have to go to work or spend the quality time with others. ::)
Here's the diode board as removed from the '81 R65. Any guesses as to where that toasty smell might have been coming from? Looks bad. Smells bad.
Another addition for the loaded shelf in my shop; labeled, Offerings to the gods of BMW.
Monte
(https://bmwr65.org/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi196.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Faa1%2Fmontmil%2FBMW%2520R65%2FDiodeBoard-Toast.jpg&hash=aa2579c4f233ff31767cffddd49cb74ce2ce64a7)
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Snowbum came good for you there Monte. Diodes shorted to earth on reverse polarity so they will have pulled a very large current and fried.
I suppose that grey paint is meant to insulate the board from inadvertent shorting out when the front cover is being removed but it must make any soldered repairs difficult. Could new diodes be soldered in if you could get the paint off or is the board itself damaged.
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Snowbum came good for you there Monte.
Could new diodes be soldered in if you could get the paint off or is the board itself damaged.
Da 'Bum does know his stuff... Luckily for thousands of Airhead owners.
I would imagine new widgets could be soldered into place but I have a good used board on the way. Unsure how easy/difficult it might be for me to identify and source the needed diodes. That sorta stuff gets pretty deep for me. :-?
Monte
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Lots of diode boards have been repaired by replacing the large diodes - at least that is what I have read over the years. The diode part #'s shouldn't be that hard to find.
I'm not so sure about the small diodes, but I'm confident that what one man made, another man can fix.
Diodes need a heat-sink placed between the diode and the soldering point, and it seems to me that these diodes are flush with the board - so I don't know how they accomplish that.
Too much heat from the soldering iron will quickly destroy the internals if care is not taken.
Besides the shelf - someone may pay you $10 or $20 for the board so they can repair it to keep as a spare or to sell. That would be someone that has done this before, obviously! (not me.)
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Since you need and new diode board I would install the Omega diode board instead of the stock board. I have been using on close to 8 years now on my R90. I also have the 450 watt alternator on the R90 and on my 82 R65. I need to do some looking I know I have one stock board and may have another one or two in some spare parts I got from a freind when I bought the 80 R65. I will look over the weekend and let you know.
Don
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It's alive! Insert video here of me doing the Happy Dance...
These old Airheads are tough rascals. Even my brain seizure couldn't keep the R65 down for long. If work had not gotten in the way, Old Blackie would have been out on the street much sooner.
The photo tells all. The two black-ish areas are where the voltage spike cooked a few diodes and then burned through the copper circuit strips. It's also the source of the stinky smell that lingered as a reminder of my error. Didn't even bother thinking about a diode board repair attempt. The diode board/rectifier unit just does not lend itself to a DIY fix.
No harm to the wiring harness. Amazing, that.
My thanks to all the R65 dot org'ers and my friends in the Airhead Beemers Club who offered advice, parts and sympathy.
A few lessons learned and in no particular order:
1. As to battery jumper cables, here in the USofA, red is positive and black ain't. :DD'oh.
2. An easy way to increase the charge to your battery is to remove any paint on the four studs where the diode board mounts. Clean off the paint, add a smear of dialectric grease and your battery will get a better kick. Also check for any paint transfered to the diode board mounts locations.
If you want more, remove each timing case screw -one at a time- and clean paint off the case where the screws snug down. This is a bit time consuming but does improve the grounding. BTW, in the way-back days, BMW had a service note to dealers regarding the diode board/paint/grounding issue and would do the cleanup as a recall.
Good grounds are vital with electricity, coffee and divorces.
3. My oil pressure warning lamp would remain dimly lit even with the ignition off. Power bleeding into the electrical system due to the damaged diodes was sending a little bit of power to the OP switch. No more of that , either.
4. I think the gray paint on the diode boards serves as protective covering; keeping potential corrosion at bay. The paint would definitely make any efforts at repairs a challenge.
5. The voltage regulator seems unaffected by all this.
I suppose this will close out this thread. It has actually been a good learning experience in spite of my momentary lapse.
Monte
(https://bmwr65.org/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi196.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Faa1%2Fmontmil%2FBMW%2520R65%2FDiodeBoard-Toast.jpg&hash=aa2579c4f233ff31767cffddd49cb74ce2ce64a7)