The New And Improved Unofficial R65 Forum V2
Technical Discussion => BMW Technical Q&A, Primarily R65 => Topic started by: msbuck on May 04, 2007, 11:01:40 PM
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:( :'( I signed up for a motorcycle course (BikeSafeNC) where you team up with a State Highway patrol motor officer (https://bmwr65.org/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.smileyhut.com%2Fhats%2Fpolice.gif&hash=805a89778fac00037f18a5d2ca8cf7c1361d5961) for an 'accessment' of your riding skills. It was a dreary drizzly day today and the bike started up just fine this morning with no symptoms of any problems all the way into the school. We spent a couple of hours in the classroom and when it was time to go out and ride with the motor officer, my bike did something very strange. It turned over, but wouldn't start. I tried twice, then the third time...nothing, nada, zip. Not a hint of any power at all. I checked the kill switch, checked the gas, turned the bike off and on, nothing. Graham told me to put it back into neutral, I did and Viola! she started right up. Wierd.
So we head out for our ride. About 10 miles or so out, she quits as I'm running down the road. No hint of anything wrong at all. So I pull over to the side ( (https://bmwr65.org/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.smileyhut.com%2Fmisc%2Fbusted_blue.gif&hash=c9e7c678256d617aab557269164087c4ee4139ae) with the blue lights flashing behind me...this time I was thankful for them!! ::) ) The officer gets off his bike and we check the kill switch, the gas, etc. I put the bike back in neutral and she starts right up! [smiley=undecided.gif] Made it through the rest of the ride just fine, no problems.
We get back to the classroom, have a few minutes of accessment and then head back out for the bikes to go for lunch. The bike starts just fine, no problems, I get about 1 mile down the road and she just quits again...just like before. Only this time, I drop it into neutral (I know what to do this time, I thought!!) and she cranks and cranks and cranks as I get slower and slower and slower. Nothing. I finally pull over and push her into the nearest parking lot (of the ABC Commission - boy, I could use a drink about now!) and leave her there as I get a ride to lunch in the SHP Patrol car. :-[
Well, after lunch we've decided that even if it starts back up, I'm not willing to finish up with the final ride and end up stranded in a place that could be very dangerous. We take the remaining classroom instruction and head home for the trailer. Got her loaded up and back home. She still turns over, but no start. I guess tomorrow (once it dries out...) we'll take the tank off and check for spark at the plug, then the coil and ignition box. Only thought I have at this point is a cracked coil that water got into. Graham also suspects the ignition box. :'( I'm so sad She let me down and I didn't get to finish my school! :'( :'(
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Bummer, if your coil is cracked moisture could infiltrate and cause it to go out. Kinda strange about kicking it into neutral those few times but could just be a coincidence. I would think removing the tank and inspecting it for cracks is in order. Also, put your meter (low ohms scale) across the primary windings (DC wires disconnected), should read in the vicinity of 1.5 ohms. The '82 LS we picked up last summer would not run due to an open primary winding.
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OK, just done the basics so far. But she started right up today...it's not raining and it's in the garage. Checked for spark at the plugs, got it. Check for gas, dropped the float bowls to be sure there was no trash or water, all ok there. Pulled the air filter to be sure I didn't have a nest, it's fine. Checked for cracks in the coil, sprayed with water to check as well, all's well there. Haven't done any of the electrics checks yet, but that'll come later. THe other thing I noticed is that the ring that secures the ignition (key) in place is lose. I think I'll check that as well, maybe something's come loose. I'll check the kill switch as well.
It's tough when it's so intermittant. I still think she just doesn't like the rain... (https://bmwr65.org/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.smiley-town.de%2Fsmiley.php%3Fbild%3DV2V0dGVyLzAyMi5naWY%3D&hash=9cdbad4f6cb0b32f6e35df6e30c65558f6d8b844)
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If your problem gets a little more involved, I made a post about 5 pages back under the title electronic ignition canister, and the link provides some real easy trouble shooting guides to determine if your 'bean can' is faulty or if the ignition control unit is bad.
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Can you take a peek under the transmission at the transmission neutral switch connections ?
I didn't think that the starter would crank if the clutch switch was bad, or if there was a
problem with the connections to it, but, it might be a not-too-difficult external troubleshooting
step before you dig too far in. I also don't see how it would cause the engine to cut out
on you like that either, but the multiple references to shifting back into neutral made me
think of it.
I'd also carefully check the starter/kill switch, as you seem to have on your plans. I haven't
had one go bad on me yet on a BMW, but have had to take apart/repair or replace them on
some japanese bikes I used to have.
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The neutral switch will stop the starter motor from turning, so you can discount that, it was just coincidence.
My guess is the Hall trigger in the beancan. Pull the plug from the beancan from the socket that enters the wiring loom, don't forget to remove the thin wire bail clip first. Get a piece of wire, pull a plug and lay it on the head so it is grounded and you can see the gap, then turn on the ignition and short to ground the CENTRE contact of the SOCKET (that leads to the wiring loom, I am specific here as others in the past have shorted the plug side, that goes to the beancan, to ground...........that does nothing!!).
If you get a spark, then it appears the Hall trigger is faulty and needs replacing, if no spark, then it's the ECU, coils or wiring.
Bill...................;-)
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If the Hall sensor does fail there was a Honeywell part # for a replacement. Anyone have that handy? Also check the Ign. mod under the tank for lack of heat paste. Overheating can cause it to fail intermittently. The neutral thing does confuse me tho.
By the way, I see our German brothers call the "bean can" a "milk can". No doubt in reference to the bikes nickname "Gummikuh".
(https://bmwr65.org/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.roanoke.com%2Fentertainment%2Fimages%2Fcowgraphic.jpg&hash=0b28545926abf0e6db3a03b6de518fbe86955906)
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Found a crack in my coil... :( . Had to remove it from the bike in order to find it, though. After doing research, it seems I had the classic symptons of a coil failure. Now that it's dry, she cranks right up. At least I know I can ride until I get a replacement, just not in the rain... now which one to buy... :-?
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If you do need a new Hall effect sensor, I believe that Honeywell part is 2AV54, which you can find in newark electronics
part number 96F1986 (www.newark.com)
There is a useful, and I think reasonably accurate list of BMW parts/alternate part substitutions on the IBMWR site,
http://www.ibmwr.org/otech/partsubs.html
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The Dyna brown coil ( 1.5 ohms) for the electronic ignition, is a common replacement coil. I got mine from Motorrad Elektrik, last October for $80 including the mounting bracket, and $6 for Priority shipping.
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Me too, as originally recommended by Justin about 6 months ago, from Motorrad Elektrik, in Alabama, http://www.motoelekt.com/ignition.htm.
$80 + $6 more s&h, much less than BMW, and it was here in 3 days, complete with all bracketry, screws and excellent instructions.
Can't hardly go wrong; highly recommend! [smiley=thumbsup.gif]
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+1 (or I guess, now +2) votes for the dyna brown coil from motorrad elektrik. I've searched around the internet
a fair amount and haven't found as good a price or availability as what they offer ! Plus, Justin has (or had)
some photos and suggestions you could use to help with installing it.
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I actually bought a pair for about $130 and with the shipping it made each coil about $70 shipped, but I had to "roll my own" bracket.
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OK, if price is not an issue, is there any advantages of the Dyna Brown coil over the BMW stock coil (new updated version, that is)? I get a pretty good discount at the BMW dealership and can get the BMW stock for around $100. More than the Dyna, but I sort of have a hang up about original componants. I'd love to hear any pros/cons about the two.
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The Dyna is a high voltage (30 KV) replacement coil that seems to be a quality component, solid, and durable. It is also made in the USA.
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Plus, the Dyna has a much nicer aluminum mounting bracket, and the "brown" coil is actually a lovely brick red color, in metal, as opposed to the factory plastic black & red.
(https://bmwr65.org/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F%5BIMG%5Dhttp%3A%2F%2Fi146.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fr261%2Fsteve2371%2FDyna.jpg&hash=5953e9ad2332dd116a1db59929b4ffbdf00cf0b3)[/img]
vs.
(https://bmwr65.org/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F%5BIMG%5Dhttp%3A%2F%2Fi146.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fr261%2Fsteve2371%2FBosch.jpg&hash=984c84c851c62cde543ba89f44961322289805af)[/img]
No comparison, really... ::)
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I just bought the updated coil from BMW (a hundred bucks would be a heck of a deal!). Bolts right on, no problems.
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Seems I have read discussions about this "updated" coil also needing a different ignition module, at least according to the guy at the parts counter. Or, it could just be another way for some parts departments to make their numbers
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Steve,
Mine doesn't look anything like yours...we both have the 1984. It's all black. I'll try to post a picture.
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OK, here's a picture of my coil...
(https://bmwr65.org/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi129.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fp210%2Fcabcgec%2FMotorcycles%2FMVC-247F.jpg&hash=ea74985076bfd094483ca3c8de068f4b020112fc)
I found this little crack in the coil... (along with some others nearby)
(https://bmwr65.org/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi129.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fp210%2Fcabcgec%2FMotorcycles%2FCoilcrack.jpg&hash=d1ae2cc995b95d829d7c93ff613c07e8c8f16f65)
AND these little burn holes...
(https://bmwr65.org/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi129.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fp210%2Fcabcgec%2FMotorcycles%2FCoilholes.jpg&hash=cd3ee42270f1134bfe4621c97543c382c5a86918)
Just thought I'd share...
Steve, is there a part number on your coil? Mine has the old Bosch number, wonder if yours might be the updated version?
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I replaced my original crack-o-matic grey coil in '94, it just failed about 2 blocks from home, the secondary coil opened. I replaced it with the red upgraded OEM coil, and that coil went bad in '03, primary winding resistance was less than half of what it was supposed to be and caused hard starting below 55 F. I have listened to the reports on the dual output OEM coils from BMW, and the consensus is if you don't have to buy one, don't ! As far as needing to replace the ignition control unit, I didn't do it when I installed the OEM upgraded coil, and that was 13 years ago. I would think that if a problem would have occurred, I think with the environment that I subjected my '81 to ( desert heat of Arizona) should have caused a failure. Here's a tip that may save you some money, if you have to replace the electronic ignition control unit, Motorrad Elektrik has a replacement for about $60. This particular part was also commonly used on European cars in the '70's and '80's, so a store like NAPA or the equivalent may be a more cost efficient way to go.
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Let me go check for a part #, Aida: I know it's definitely a Bosch part.
Ok, I'm back. Yep, Bosch, part # 0 221 500 203, which doesn't "hit" as a BMW part #.
"Made in Slovenia", it says. Hmmmmm...
This is all on the outer mounting bracket, and looks like the only print on the thing.
Bob, your red upgrade OEM sounds like mine, and exhibited the exact same symptoms too: low primary resistance and (very) hard starting at cooler temps. I never did find a crack, though.
What are you running in your '81 now?
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Steve, that's the upgraded part (Bosch) number, mine ends in 200. So from what Bob says, it looks like the BMW coils last about 10 years. Although this is my original, so it is 23 years old. Can't complain about that! Bob, did you replace the OEM red upgraded coil with a Dyna?
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Sorry Bob, but backtracking I see you too installed a Dyna Brown last October.
What did you run between '03 and October '06??
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Steve, I lived with the problem, as the multimeter that I was checking the coil with was out of calibration, it showed the correct 1.5 ohms for the primary coil. I brought a calibrated Flukemeter from work home , that's when I found out what the problem was. I was blaming the hard starting on the 10% ethanol in the fuel, as this hard starting came on at the same time that ethanol was added to the fuel here in Phoenix. I had my second bike an oilhead, and I rode it during the Phoenix " winter". This hard starting symptom also was present just 6 months before the original grey coil failed.
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Always nice to have a spare sled, isn't it Bob? I'm kinda slowly working on that myself.
So, Aida, you still never did say what you planned to run in the '84.
You going with Dyna, or sticking with factory Beemer?? :-?
I'm outta here, gotta get some sleep so's I can go work for The Man tomorrow.
Nite all...
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Steve,
I imagine she probably gets them for about half price ;) so I would probably use a stocker, too, for that! ;D
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MSBuck, yes I replaced the red upgraded coil with the Dyna 'brown' coil. If you decide to install the Dyna coil, pay particular attention to the caution of installing the 12 volt terminals to towards the frame, if you don't , when you install the fuel tank, you ground out the positive lead on the coil, and the bike won't start. Not that I did that! After installing the Dyna coil, I let my bike sit outside overnight on a 22 F. temp morning ( a record low temp in Phoenix), and the bike started with no problems what so ever.
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Thanks for all the input. I think I will probably go with the stock coil. Since the last one lasted so long, I have pretty good faith in it. I do have a thing about keeping things original... :P
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To each their own. I, too, like to keep original when it makes sense but I'm not a fanatic about it. If you can get the stocker cheaper than the Dyna that would make perfect sense to me. But in our case the Dynatek coil is a no-brainer as it's cheaper and more robust.
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Can't say I'm a fanatic, but when I can I'll do it. Talked to the Service Manager about it today and his opinion was the reliabilty wasn't much different and with such a small price difference it makes sense to use the stock. Don't have to worry about incompatible parts (mixing Bosch with other componants.) Graham had a problem with the Bosch system on his Porsche years ago and his mechanic told him the problem was his aftermarket componants. He went back to full Bosch and never had any more problems. Not saying this is the case with ours, but it's just one less thing to put in the mix. As I said, I had good reliable service out of my stock unit for 23 years and over 60k.
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Glad I saw this one. . .took a look at my coil, and I'm honestly surprised it hasn't failed me yet. Pictures soon, and it looks like I'll be ordering a Dyna tomorrow.
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Aïda, did you ask your service mangler about the ignition module? I know I read somewhere (maybe on boxerworks) where somebody went to the "upgraded" coil and the parts guy told him he was supposed to change the module as well. Did you say that yours was already the "upgraded" coil? If so, then I guess it would not apply in your case... The only reason I could think of for this would be if the new coil had a different resistance. When you get your new coil please put a meter across the primary and measure the resistance - just to satisfy my curiosity! ;)
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Don't think I asked that question. I should get the coil next week when I go back to work. I'll ask him then and I'll be glad to ...
put a meter across the primary and measure the resistance - just to satisfy my curiosity!
I have the original type now, not the upgraded. So we'll see...
Mumford,
Mine didn't give me a lick of trouble till I was in the rain. I think I would be ok as long as I didn't ride in the rain, but you never know. I was quite suprised by the failure...I just knew it had to be the rain. :D
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OK, I'm a bit slow here, but we have the new BMW ignition coil installed and WHAT A DIFFERENCE!! ;D I guess I didn't realize how hard starting the bike was until it's not anymore. It was never hard to start, just didn't usually start the first push of the button, but it does now.
We asked the Service manager about the ignition module and he had never heard of having to upgrade it. He even did some research and couldn't find a different module available (BMW wise). I did start out with the original non-upgraded coil and now I have the upgraded coil. As far as the resistance across the primary coil, my first coil had about 1.6 ohms while the new one has about .8 ohms. Does this sound right, Justin? I'm not real familiar with all the terminology trying to test this stuff and got a little confused about it all. :-/
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Put the Dyna in a couple days ago. . .all of a sudden i have instant starts. . .damp, cold, warm, hot, all instant starts. . . ;D
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Chalk another up for the good guys!!! [smiley=1drink.gif] I love it when a plan comes together... ;D ;D ;D
Aïda, I guess that the parts guy mentioned in the other post (I think it was boxerworks) just needed to pad his sales for that day. The only thing that makes me wonder is the primary ohms, .75 seems a bit low (but I have no "new" old style coil to check) so maybe the "new and improved" coil has a lower primary resistence. This may be why the parts goober suggested the module be changed as well...