The New And Improved Unofficial R65 Forum V2
Technical Discussion => BMW Technical Q&A, Primarily R65 => Topic started by: chewy4x4 on January 07, 2011, 01:47:21 AM
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Hello again Gentleman and Ladies (in case you are here).
OK so I have the first US spec 81 r65 and for the last 1.5 years it has been a 3-4 times a week commuter. She now has 9000 miles on her up from the 4500(original) when I first got her. I have had a bit of trouble with the 65 not cranking at all. It has been like this for a few months now, but I have only now been able to put her down to work on her.
When I first started having these problems I showed up her asking for help and received great advice. I have replaced the starter with the valeo one offered from EuroMotoElectric and I replaced the starter WIRE and ground with a new one as I found mine to be corroded under the sheathing. I have also adjusted the valves. That worked for a while but now the same problem is back.
HELP!!!!!!
OK here's what happens. I have the bike on a float charger at all times when parked at home it sits at 12.3V (Also its not the battery as this same issue exists when I am being jumped.) So Key in the ignition. Turn to run. Transmission in neutral. Clutch held. Press start button. Power is sent from the start button to the relay. The relay functions perfectly and power is then sent to the starter relay. The starter relay functions perfectly as well and the armature jumps forward. CLICK. Nothing. Nada. Zilch. The starter does not spin. WTF.
I am truly puzzled no annoyed by this issue. Can the R65 gods that roam this forum please grace this thread with your presence and give me guidance in this matter. I don't want to be buying a new starter every 9 months as that will get just a little bit expensive. Please help if you can.
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You might call EuroMotoElectric and see what they suggest. If the armature is moving forward, but nothing else, it could be a defective starter.
I'm sorry, but that is all I have to offer. :-/
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I have the bike on a float charger at all times when parked at home it sits at 12.3V
I know you say it's not the battery and it does sound like you have a problem with the starter but If your voltage measurement is accurate 12.3 volts is much too low for a float charge and would only keep the battery at 50% charge.
Float chargers should typically charge at around 13.4 Volts.
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Have the leads of a multimeter connected to the battery posts after it's been on charge overnight, then check the voltage when the start button is depressed .
It shouldn't drop below 10.5 volts while operating the starter .
If you have a repair shop near you that works on starters and generators, see if they will test it, usually it's a no charge for most shops .
Just for informational purposes, what brand of battery do you have and how old is it ?
Is it a sealed, or serviceable type ?
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Ok Im going to pull the starter and the battery and have them bench tested at my local Aprila shop as they are the only people I have seen with a race R90S in the shop. and I figgure if they can work on that they can help with my little 65. Thanks to all of you. Oh and Bob and Rob you were to of the people I had in mind when I asked for help so thanks.
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Also if the starter is bad is the Super Nippondenso one better than the Valeo?
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OK just went and and checked the battery and it sits at 12.54 off the Battery MAINTAINER and 12.68 on. The Maintainer says it is a 12v DC out put at 1.5 amps. The battery drops to about 11.36 when I hit the start button. Again it is not cranking so I don't know if that is how low it would drop if it was but I am still convinced that my battery is fine it is a battery that had acid added to it then it was charged. The caps on the ports to the cells wont come out so I don't think it is serviceable. But I am not good with batteries I have never had a vehicle with a serviceable battery. I guess you need to be older than 27 to have more experiance with those. ;)
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Why did you replace the original Bosch starter with the Valeo ?
The only negative comments I have heard about the Valeo starters, is that they have the field coils secured with adhesive instead of threaded fasteners .
There have been reports of the adhesive failing and having the field coils jam the starter .
I don't know how common of a problem it is with the starters, the problem may have been blown out of proportion with real life experience .
I have the ninth bike off of the production line for the '81 model year, serial number 6385009, the only problem I've had with the original starter, was that it needed a good cleaning and lubrication about six years ago, the bike is just about ready to turn over 85,000 miles (140,000km) .
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It was originally suggested that my Bosch was bad as it was having a lot of trouble starting the bike. I will put the old bosh back on the bike and see if that helps but I don't have high hopes. That will be later tonight so I will update on that one in the AM. Unless my 2 year old takes an extra long nap this ava. We will see.
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The starter gets it's ground through contact with the engine case .
Is there any paint, sealant or corrosion where the bare metal of both parts contact each other, including the two bolts that hold the starter on ?
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Dont know Ill check and Ill clean them.
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Press start button. Power is sent from the start button to the relay. The relay functions perfectly and power is then sent to the starter relay. The starter relay functions perfectly as well and the armature jumps forward. CLICK. Nothing. Nada. Zilch. The starter does not spin.
The starter relay, right under the gas tank, will click when you hit the starter button. Are you sure that the armature down on the starter itself is clicking? My bike has a corroded blade connection (that I still haven't cleaned up/replaced!) at the starter that comes from the starter relay, and when it won't pass enough current the under tank relay will click, but the starter won't turn. If I jump the terminals at the starter (I used a screw driver) it will turn over. I need to replace the female blade connector one of these days.
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My suspicion is also at the starter solenoid wire connection and/or ground connection at the starter.
IT also sounds like your battery might not be fully up to snuff - if the starter motor seems to be fine. The wet cell battery on my Kawasaki croaked on me this autumn all of a sudden after being seemingly fine all summer long. Even after leaving it on a battery tender for a day, the voltage would measure 12.8V at rest and seemed OK until one put the key in and turned the ignition on. Sometimes the dash and idiot lights would remain lit and the starter relay would chatter slightly, but pressing the start button would drop everything and go dark. Turn key off, wait 10 minutes, and try again - lights usually (but not always) would come back on, but any attempt to draw more than about 250 milliamps would cause the battery voltage to drop to 9 volts or so and no juice. Replaced battery with new sealed AGM battery and all was well again. Maybe your friendly shop can load test your battery to see if it really maintains proper voltage while providing starting current.
The Valeo starters draw less current than the Bosch units, and are slightly lighter - I think that they were fitted to all the airheads beginning in the mid 80s. The Nippondenso starter motor is THE ULTIMATE starter motor for airheads - it was originally used on Nissan truck engines and is stronger and more efficient, but it is also MUCH more expensive - though I believe Motorrad Elektrik has these, too.
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Ok so John at euromoto is awsome after a year he agreed to check out my starter for free......and he found nothing wrong.
OK so I cleaned the contact points between the starter and the bike and I mounted up the VALeo and click nothing. I know the armature is going out but it wont spin. I then mounted the old Bosch and it cranked the bike. What gives. I can check the spade connector but I assume it is fine as the Bosch cranked. I didn't start the bike as I have it in pieces but it cranked.
So here I am again asking the same question what the hell do I check now.
I will say that I have used the time effectively preforming a spline lube and cleaning up the carbs. I didnt really clean them out but I did replace the choke and bowl gaskets with silicone ones.
Also could the diode board be causing any of these issues? Lets assume I am a dumbass and cant trouble shoot any thing myself with out messing things up further. What do I need to check and how should I check it. Again just assume I am a 16y/o little girl who cant fend for myself. because at this point thats how I feel.
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Ok I orderd an AGM battery, a new coil (as the one I have has a crack), along with some new wires and plugs. I have, as stated above, replaced the power and earth cables and I have cleaned the mating surface and bolts for the starter. John at euromoto is sending my VALEO starter back with a clean bill of health and he is also sending me a new starter relay(just in case) free of charge I might add John is a really stand up guy. I will clean the spade conector at the starter and I will give it a light coating of dielectric grease.
I think that is all I can do to the electrical system for the starter. Any other suggestions will be greatly appreciated.
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Ok... a new coil (as the one I have has a crack)...
If you're replacing the factory-installed, black and gray, Crack-O-Matic pain in the arse, your start and running problems are most likely going to disappear. Dyna Brown, by chance?
Sure wish we knew about the coil earlier. Could've saved you some time and dough.
Repeat after me: Crack-O-Matic bad.[smiley=furious3.gif] Dyna good.[smiley=beer.gif]
Monte
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Well I simply called Rick and asked for the Dyna coil and a set of wires and plugs for my 81 R65 So yes it should be a Dyna Brown. I hope that will fix the issue. I have gone crazy with this and I just want to ride. Not to mention school starts on the 18th and this is my ride.
I will be getting Ricks Alpha ignition and John's Enduralast charging system for this thing at a later date. After it runs right and my mind is a little more at rest I can start my big project with it. CAFE ;)
Oh well I hope to have all the parts I need by Tuesday. I will keep the forum informed when this is all said and done.
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Hey Monte just for my information. How could the coil have been causing the starter not to spin whet the armature was thrown out?
How could the coil have been my problem from the start?
I was able to get the bike to crank if I sat and just quickly kept pressing the starter button for like 5-10 minuets. Mostly I would just push start the bike. But that became harder and harder recently.
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I think that we'll have to wait and see what happens when you put all these bits back together first - too many items have changed at once to be able to make any good predictions/diagnoses at this stage. Maybe when reinstalled and everything is carefully re-connected and bolted down tight, it will all work..
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Hey Monty just for my information. How could the coil have been causing the starter not to spin whet the armature was thrown out?
How could the coil have been my problem from the start?
I was able to get the bike to crank if I sat and just quickly kept pressing the starter button for like 5-10 minuets. Mostly I would just push start the bike. But that became harder and harder recently.
Well, Chewbaca, with the starter checked out as good by the 'sperts, I'd have to scratch off the starter as a problem. I also believe your current battery is plain ol' Tango Uniform and when the new AGM battery is plugged in, will bring life to the scooter. I run Staab AGM batteries in both my R65s and they are golden. I also have a Battery Tender that gets routinely used even though the scoots live in a comfy garage... I'm always thinking there's a gremlin voltage leak... somewhere. Doesn't seem to be but I'll play the belt and suspenders deal.
You did say you observed a crack in the coil, correct? OEM coil did you say? Good odds that's why, "Mostly I would just push start the bike. But that became harder and harder recently."
All the same, plug in that new starter relay, too. Couldn't hurt. Check old for signs of corrosion. I'm still amazed the way some tiny corrosion on a spade fitting, an electrical terminal or what, can create havoc at some seemingly distant and unrelated electrical 'gizmo'. That was my issue with the stone-age OEM ceramic and wire fuses; now long gone.
Remember, with these here BMWs, it's usually a simple thing yet we often will suspect the worse. Luck to you. Probably warmer in New Braunfels than up here.
Monte... with an E ;)
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The coil would have nothing to do with the starting problem.
Sounds to me like a better understanding of the starter circuit is in order. It's really difficult to troubleshoot something that's not understood.
So... the object of troubleshooting is to locate the defective item. How to do that in this case?
One way is to bypass parts of the circuit to see if individual items can be made to work alone.
So a good place to start is to test the starter. Sound like a good idea? Here's how it's done: Grab a set of car jumper wires.
Connect the Red clip to the hot lead (+12V) at the starter (the large nut where the battery cable attaches).
Connect the Black clip (-12V) to a mounting ear of the starter (ground).
Connect the other ends to the appropriate battery terminals.
What this has effectively done is bypassed all of the wiring, relay, switches and connections.
The starter won't turn at this point because the starter solenoid needs to be activated for that to happen. So... the way to do that is to jumper +12V to the small spade terminal on the solenoid.
Now, if the starter cranks normally, you'll know the starter and battery are good. If not, then one of them isn't. But hopefully the battery has already been tested at a battery place. And you've already discovered both of your starters are good, so it aint them!
What does that leave? Connections, switches and starter relay.
Another important piece of data - it's important to have +12V at the starter, but if a connection is bad and doesn't allow much current to flow, nothing will work right. Realize that the starter is the most taxing item in the whole electrical system. It can draw 150 amps when in use! That's why it's got such a large cable supplying it. And don't forget that the return path is just as important as the supply. What's the condition of your ground cable?
As an example, the ground can be tested by running the jumper cable from the starter mount to the negative terminal of the battery. If it now works when it didn't before, then something in that part of the circuit is wonky. You've then narrowed down the area in which to look for the fault.
The starter relay is just a remote switch. Bypass it to see if everything now works. Since a new one is coming, try the new one.
But I suspect you've got a connection or wire issue. First place I would guess is the ground cable.
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Monte I just ordered that very battery. So I will scratch that off the list very soon. And the weather is 45 degrees and raining it has been all day. And funny about the chewbaca thing as that has been my nick name my whole life (My last name is "C de Baca") or at least it was until I joined my rugby team and they realized I was the slowest guy there now they call me "Turbo".
Wirespokes Thanks for the input as I mentioned at the start of the thread I just replaced the ground and Starter wires with new items. I also fully cleaned every mounting surface pertaining to them. I had jumped the starter via the "Large Nut" and the same issue occurred.
I agree not fully understanding the system has been hampering my trouble shooting. I never did anything with the spade on the starter as I did not know what that controlled I suspected it was the input from the starter relay to the starter.
I have even gone as far as to wire a Ford F250 starter solenoid to the starter bypassing everything but the starter and the same issue with the starter just throwing out.
I ran out of the knowledge I had on the matter and have been here since.
NHMAF I agree at this point we will just have to see if the bike is willing after the work is done. I love this bike and I just want it healthy.
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Ok so I have been thinking and I wanted to throw this one out at y'all. Why would there have been just one solid click from the starter when I pressed the starter button?
How does the starter work step by step?
Because I suspect my issue is somewhere in those steps.
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The coil would have nothing to do with the starting problem.
Nor did I mean to imply that it did. I just believe the problem is elsewhere and it's not the starter. I note that Chewy's bike will now no longer fire even with the LeMan run and bump.
Cracked coil discovered. Battery is still my bet.
Monte
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How does the starter work?
Not knowing what you know or don't - here goes: The starter motor is more than just a 12V electric motor since it also has a solenoid and bendix.
A solenoid is an electrically operated lever, but in this case also acts as a relay as well. It's that smaller can-shaped thing attached to the side of the starter motor. It's got two functions - engage the drive gear to mate up with the flywheel, and route 12V to the motor. The solenoid is activated through that spade terminal on it's end.
The Bendix is the mechanism that moves the drive gear to engage with the flywheel, or pull it back out of the way.
So the solenoid is an electro magnet and when it's activated it sucks two contacts together providing a path for 12V to the starter, and also at the same time pulls in the arm of the Bendix which engages the drive gear.
The starter relay is activated by the starter button on the handlebar. When it's pushed, the starter relay then provides 12V to the spade terminal on the solenoid. When this happens, the drive gear engages and the motor spins.
Pretty simple really.
But the one item that can look good and seem to check out fine, but isn't, is the battery. If nothing else, disconnect one of the battery terminals and connect the car battery to test. Don't just jump to the bike battery, because sometimes a cell can be shorted out, and jumpering won't start it either. Get the battery out of the circuit.
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Thanks Wire. I did indeed know most or the information you posted(all save the Bendix). But as I said I wanted to be talked to like a little helpless girl. So thanks your answer was perfect.
So here is the update.
After I sent the VALEO starter back to john I mounted the Bosch back in the bike in order to chase the issue further. The Bosch cranked the bike on the first try. That being said I had cleaned all the mating surfaces and put dielectric grease on all of the connections.
So feeling that I had fixed the issue when I received my VALEO starter back from John I mounted it in the bike and figured it would work. WRONG. Shit. Well out came the VALEO again and the Bosch went back in (oh on a side note I can now change a starter in an Airhead faster than anyone out here....FACT). The Bosch started the bike just fine this morning and this afternoon and numerous times throughout the day. I am still waiting on my new coil plugs and wires. But that is just icing.
I can not conclude anything other than this... The VALEO starter is the problem. I know John says its fine but obviously it is not as a starter that has a greater draw can crank the bike just fine. I can only conclude that there is a messed up connection in the VALEO.
It appears that the starter solenoid can only preform one of its tasks at a time it engages the Bendix just fine but does not spin. When I bridged the terminals yesterday I heard the spin but the armature was not thrown out. I an indeed angry that I now have a $300 starter that doesn't work but what can I do. I guess I will copy this post to John but I am way out of warranty so I think I am screwed.
Any thoughts Y'all?
Oh yeah this was all on the battery that was deemed no good. It still reads a bit low but hell now it can sit while I use the sealed new battery.
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Any thoughts Y'all?
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I think I recall that the Valeo is a product of France.;D French Partisans are messing with your German bike.
Chewy, this entire episode can be logged as tuition for your continuing education in the mysteries of motorcycles. You now possess additional technical skills that you might be able to share with others less fortunate than you.
Ride on, buddy. Texas awaits.
Monte
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Monte you are very correct. Viva Tejas. I have learned more than I could have ever wanted to know. I have enjoyed every frustrating moment of it
To recap so those searching in the forum can know what has been done.
1. MOST IMPORTANT I have cleaned using a scotch brite pad and brake parts cleaner, all or the contacts in the starting, charging and grounding circuits on this bike. Including the mating surface from the block to the starter. I then coated all these contacts in a THIN film of dielectric grease.
2. I have replaced both the Starting cable and grounding cable using HICAP copper wires from here. http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=150436554508&viewitem=
3. I have Gained complete knowledge about the removal and installation of the Air box, Starter and the Diode board.
4. I have replaced the Battery with this Staab battery.http://www.staabbattery.com/product/sla-12/UB12220-V.html
5. I have Upgraded the Diode board grounding and positive using 6 gauge wire and the instructions from Evolution Cycles. I tried to do the AC wires but the spade connectors I could get were all to big and kept coming off. http://www.evolutioncycles.com/airhead_ideas.htm
6. I preformed a spline lube and then MADE SURE to balance the swing arm an torque the nuts correctly Also I did have to get a 27mm socket I purchased a craftsman and then had to grind down its lip. I followed these instructions. http://www.webbikeworld.com/t2/spline/
7. I replaced the bowl and choke gaskets with REAL GASKETS nitrile gaskets. A real quality product. http://www.realgaskets.com/files/motorcycle.htm
8. I cleaned (inside and out) and adjusted both carburetors.
9. I preformed a valve adjustment thanks to this web site and my factory service manual. Thanks to E-classic bikes. http://www.e-classicbike.com/
10. I have Sanded painted and Mounted a San Jose fork brace on the R65 and I can say two things about it one I love wire wheels but my skin hates them and two THIS BRACE MAKES A VERY NOTICABLE DIFFERENCE IN THE HANDLEING OF THIS BIKE.
11. I have removed my pulse air system following these instructions and purchasing from BMW all of the recommended parts. http://www.webbikeworld.com/Motorcycle-technical-articles/pulse-air/
12. I have replaced my Headlight with a Sylvania Silver Star H4 light. http://www.sylvania.com/ConsumerProducts/AutomotiveLighting/HighPerformance/Silverstar/
13. I broke the welds on the right front turn signal stem and fixed it using this LOCKTITE EPOXY. I plan to permanently fix this issue by drilling two wholes in the spot welds and taping to small screws in to them. http://www.loctiteproducts.com/p/13/6/epxy_5min/overview/Loctite-Epoxy-Instant-Mix-5-Minute.htm
14. I cleaned and replenished all of the plastic and rubber on this bike including the crankcase vent hose and the internal trumpets in the air box using 303 AEROSPACE PROTECTANT. It has given all of the rubber and plastic on this bike a new lease on life. IT WORKS. http://www.303products.com/shop303/index.cfm/category/65/303-aerospace-protectant.cfm
15. I have mounted a new brown DYNA coil along with new NGK plugs and NGK wires. from Rick at Motorrad Elektrik. http://www.motoelekt.com/ignition.htm
And Finally I can not say that the products I have received from EuroMotoelectrics have worked out for me as everyone can see from this thread they have not BUT I will say that John has the best customer service I have ever experienced. I trust John and his company but now more than ever I don't trust the FRENCH ;)
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Is there a difference in the number of teeth on the starter gear of each starter, just a wild thought !!!
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To be honest Bob in my frustration I never counted them myself. However John assured me that The valeo has the right amount of teeth I did ask when he had it. I'll check if I ever pull the BOSCH out again. The issue with the starter just became so aggravating I couldn't stand it. I just hope I can figure it out. I think I might just disassemble the VALEO to check things out. It will be a good learning experience as well.
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OK so an update about the starter. John says he believes that I am having "relay compatibility issues." I was sent two relays from John and neither of them worked on the bike.
If it is simply a compatibility issue why would the starter sometimes work if I repeatedly pressed the start button?