The New And Improved Unofficial R65 Forum V2
Technical Discussion => BMW Technical Q&A, Primarily R65 => Topic started by: azcycle on September 29, 2010, 01:24:19 PM
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I got married on Sunday, and have had a great few days off with my new wife. It was our first day back to work this week, and she was running late, so I decided to take the r65 into work this morning. It was a beautiful commute in... weather great, not too many crazy cagers. Then it happened....
I was about halfway to work, shifted to third, and when I let out the clutch I heard the most horrid grinding sound accompanied by NO power to the rear. Pulled in the clutch, shifted down to 2nd, let out the clutch with the same result..... *GRIND*
Coasted off onto a side road with my heart sinking. The bike seems to shift up and down okay, but when I release the clutch, it doesn't engage.... just a horrible grinding sound. I assume the clutch splines are stripped? I was a bad boy... and hadn't checked the clutch splines since I've had it. It was one on the "to do" list but maybe too late now...
So assuming this is the problem, what kind of $$ damage am I looking at here? Ugh... great way to start off my marriage after completely emptying our bank account on the wedding. Looks like the r65 will be down for a long while until I can save up the funds.
Is this John's way of saying he doesn't approve of me marrying his daughter? I thought he liked me! ;D
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Have you checked the drive shaft bolts under the swinging arm boot?? may not be the splines if your lucky.....congrats on the wedding.
How about this just in case.
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/BMW-R-series-5-speed-gearbox-1981-/150498033348?pt=UK_Motorcycle_Parts&hash=item230a61bec4
Lou
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Haven't checked anything. Left it in a parking lot and got a ride into work. I need to go back this evening with a truck and carry it home. Will check the drive shaft bolts when I get a chance.
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Transmission input shaft is around $300, if you can just get away with labor to open the transmission up and replace the shaft and all of the seals and gaskets, add maybe around the same amount, if bearings need to be replaced, figure on around $600-700 for the transmission rebuild .
The clutch needs to be replaced around $100, if the pressure ring and pressure plate don't need to be replaced you'll save another $200 or so .
Figure in the rubber boots that will probably need to be replaced, bolts, lock washers and spline grease, figure on about another $50 .
It may be more cost effective to get a replacement transmission .
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As to the above comments, check the easier and cheaper stuff first... Drive shaft bolts under the boot can be kinda checked by squeezing the boot and feeling the bolts as you rotate the rear wheel.
Pulling the swing arm pivot bolts and pulling back the transmission will reveal the input splines but you'll need to completely remove the gear box to check the female portion of the spline connection. Keep your fingers crossed, Graeme.
And congratulations and best wishes on your marriage. Hoping your new bride understands your BMW addiction. At least she'll know where you are... in the garage working on that *#@*!* money pit of a motorcycle.
I love it!
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I know she understands, as it was her dad's bike. She was all too familiar with his obsession with 2-wheeled BMW's. And I know she wants to do whatever it takes to keep this bike, as it "IS" her dad to her. Might not be fixed immediately, but it will be fixed and back on the road eventually.
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Graeme, Let us know what we can do to assist. You will not, repeat not, quit this bike. SWWBO deems it so. ;)
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Sounds very familiar to me - the info you need to pull the gearbox and change the clutch parts yourself is in our wiki section.
If you are VERY lucky, the input shaft splines on the gearbox won't be too badly damaged - but you'll have to be very lucky, and the more times you run the engine and try to enage the clutch will make things worse. I still have my old transmission siting in the garage waiting to be repaired (new input shaft). I was able to find a fully rebuilt transmission for $500 by careful scouting of the internet, so I bought that and put it in while I save the ~$600 or so it will likely take to ship and rebuild the original gearbox.
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(https://bmwr65.org/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Flh3.ggpht.com%2F_78IZhoIuYiU%2FTKQWSPXy0XI%2FAAAAAAAAAJM%2F4ec8thoDysI%2Fs400%2Fphoto.JPG&hash=ab6ae8e384821fa1173ae454a85b413546377bba)
Well, got the bike home tonight after dark. Didn't have much time or motivation to snoop, but I DID feel the driveshaft through the rubber boot and felt the driveshaft turn so that's not it. I reluctantly put the bike in gear and gently rolled it back and forth, listening, and could definitely hear what sounded like an angry bee "vvvvvvvvvvtttt.... vvvvvvvvvtttt" sound from right between the gearbox and engine. So while I'm no expert and I won't crack the beast apart for a while yet, I'm pretty certain it's the input shaft splines. They sound pretty shredded.
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To remove the transmission, you will need to drop the swing-arm.
Those 27mm locknuts on the swing-arm pivots can be hard to get to.
Some 27mm sockets fit easily. Most have to have their OD reduced a bit to fit in the recess. You also want to "flatten" the rim to remove any taper, allowing the socket to get a good connection.
I just bought one of these for $13
(https://bmwr65.org/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.culayer.com%2FJoes%2FTool_2.gif&hash=b7b75e00a7cb7f6cbadefddbb9a5a1e628ae11d9)
http://www.culayer.com/Joes_tools.htm
For a long time, I used BMW's tool, but it doesn't allow you to check the torque.
(https://bmwr65.org/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.pbase.com%2Ftomfarr%2Fimage%2F65796761%2Fsmall.jpg&hash=56efd38375ef26a3ce83cb1ee5d2d8075d2533d3)
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Graeme, Let us know what we can do to assist. You will not, repeat not, quit this bike. SWWBO deems it so. ;)
interesting quote there Monte on this side of the pond its... SWMBO dare say you'll figure it out.
I hadn't read the eBay ad fully seems the price includes stripped splines thought it was cheap.
Lou
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I mentioned to the wife that rebuilds are typically in the $600 range and her response was "Oh, that's not too bad..." so while it's no small chunk of change, she is okay with it. Of course, while I'm in there I might have to replace the clutch and it will give me the opportunity to replace the badly leaking main seal (and/or oil pump cover). So we might be looking at $1000 or so. Ugh.
So speaking of clutches, assuming this one does need to be replaced, do I have to buy ALL pieces or can I just get the clutch plate and/or the diaphragm spring? I read somewhere how they're balanced together a certain way so I have to purchase as a group? That seems expensive to do just to renew an intended replaceable item...
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They are not balanced as a group .
I had the plates resurfaced and the friction lining replaced on my '81, three years ago .
I don't recommend going that route, I had nothing but problems with a poor machining job on the plates .
The two plates that mate up to the clutch, normally develop high and low spots with use, when you replace only the clutch disc, I have been told that you can get rapid wear on the clutch disc and reduced life .
Check the plates when you get them off and see how 'true' they are and then make your decision .
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So I'm hearing some inconsistencies regarding gearbox rebuilds. It's mentioned here above that a rebuild is in the $600 range but on another forum they're saying at least $1600. I know it depends on the damage, but I can't fathom $1600 on a rebuild of the r65 gearbox.... maybe a newer model BMW.
Can you guys help clarify so I can remove my heart from my stomach?
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A normal rebuild, which includes all of the gaskets, seals, shifter pawl spring and bearings is in the range of $650-700 including labor .
In your case, the input shaft is around $300 in additional cost .
So figure $950-1050 in your situation .
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Thanks for the clarification, Bob. Have any of you dealt with Motorworks.uk? They've got a number of used gearboxes for what seems like reasonable prices, and fully reconditioned boxes with warranties for not much more.
Not sure exactly what I need:
- Used - Gearbox 5 speed post 81 OR
- Gearbox paralever without kickstart
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You need a gearbox from an '81-95 airhead, R65,R80, or R100 bikes no other gearboxes will work .
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I was quoted $950 for a fresh rebuilt box from Psycle Recycle in Ohio.
I SURE wouldn't want to ship one from overseas. Expensive!!!
I bought a very dirty transmission from the breaker in Texas for $400. He said he had just pulled it out of a buddy's bike that wanted a kick-start, so (he said) it had no issues. For that price, and because he has his reputation to consider, I took him at his word and jumped on it.
After scrubbing on it for a few hours, it's "patina" still makes my engine look nearly new!
No, I haven't finished the install, yet, so I don't know if it works, or not.
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I was asking around through the local sub-forum of the ADVRiders website and a fellow came highly recommended by a number of those guys as a local not-well-known but highly-regarded bmw expert. His shop wasn't too far from my office so I ran down there on my lunch hour today.
Pulled up to his shop, recognizing it by the 12-15 or so BMWs sitting outside, including an old r75 and a Bumble-Bee r80(?). I immediately remembered the place as my FIL sent me there a couple years ago to pick up some parts for him.
He was nice enough to stop working on an old 'Guzzi up on the lift, sit and chat with me. Turns out he knew my FIL very well and actually has worked on my r65 a few times: Rebuilt the front forks, installed a timing chain, etc. Apparently he also installed a high-end charging system in it, but my FIL didn't think it was working correctly and had him remove it, which ended up causing a bit of a falling out between the two. Too bad, that would have been nice to have! He also remembers telling my FIL that the knobby tires wouldn't fit well on the r65 and advised against adding the PVC pipe spacers in the forks... if any of you read my fork thread you'll remember I mentioned taking those out when I redid the seals, etc. He was surprised and saddened to learn of my FIL's passing.
Anyway, he did say it sounded like a spline issue but said it could also have been the clutch going out. He quoted me about $750 including the $250 spline driveshaft and said if I brought the gearbox in, I could sit and watch him rip it apart and see what it needed... make a list and go from there. He told me all about how to bump the swingarm back, block the crank, etc... so he really sounded like he knew what he was donig.
No doubt I"ll need a new clutch plate. So yeah... looking at about $1100. :'( I am happy to find a guy that is familiar with bike and willing to work on it for me. But it looks like the r65 will be down for a long while.
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Too bad about the bike down-time.
I'm glad you found someone local to work on it, though!
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Good to hear you have a local shop to work on the transmission .
I was going to tell you about a local shop here in Mesa, that specializes in rebuilding gearboxes .
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It all depends on how many parts in the gearbox needs replacing - often times a gearbox is taken apart for much worse things than the replacement of the input shaft, and the bearings, springs, and other parts inside can get pricey if many other bits needs replacing. The whole works must be shimmed up carefully to work properly afterwards, so there is definitely some 'science' and experience needed (along with a kit of varying thickness BMW transmission shims). I'd expect a bill somewhere in the $600-900 range, depending on where you get the work done and if anything else is wrong. There are some places that are better than others for repairing gearboxes.
You may just need to replace the clutch disk, but will have to take the other bits apart and measure some things to determine if they are OK to reuse or not. The clutch carrier assembly is assembled at the factory in a somewhat balanced state - you will see some paint marks on some of the parts. If you reuse the pressure plate and carrier disk, I'd put them back with the same orientation as they were originally (usually paint daubs @ 120 separation) if possible. If you need all new parts, don't sweat it - the degree of imbalance if any is usually very slight and not likely to cause excess vibration.
Check the wiki section under clutch repair - if there aren't any pictures in the article, let us know - there should be a bunch of them to show you step by step.
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Oh, and congratulations on your wedding!!
If your wife is OK with you riding and spending money on motorcycles, she's probably a 'keeper'!!!
:)
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That is the nice thing about being "old", we (the "older" owners) can replace the entire clutch assembly confident it will probably be the last time in our lives that bike will need it.
I can't make the same "guarantee" for a young one like yourself, but it will probably last at least 20 years. In which case, you may want to buy a spare while they are still available!
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Thanks all for the marital congratulations. I may be able to get the r65 up and running sooner than later but we'll see. I'm looking to see what kind of custom tools I need to order for the main seal, flywheel holder, crankshaft blocker bolt, swingarm socket, etc.
I went to the Wiki and there are no photos there. I'll certainly use my Clymer manual but if the photos could be loaded in the wiki for my (and others) that'd be great.
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WTF !
We'll have to ask Justin M what happened to the Wiki pictures after they've apparently switched the wiki database/engine/thingy. Doesn't make the wiki very useful without pictures....
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Well made minor progress today in the form of buying specialty tools and gaskets from Jeff Trapp, etc so I can get to removing the transmission.
Chomping at the bit here... such great riding weather!! :'(
I've got to get on the ball and win the lottery....
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You can't ask for much better riding weather, overnight low around 60 F, daytime high around 90 F, 9% humidity and a 10 mph breeze .
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Ya rubbing it in, Bob? :o
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Not for you, but for the riders that are putting their bikes away for the season . [smiley=happy.gif] [smiley=happy.gif]
The best of the riding season has just gotten here in the low deserts .
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90 is too hot.
I added my Sampsonite trunk to the R65 last night, and should now have enough locking luggage room that I can go to the park, lock my riding gear up on the bike, and go running. I've been getting more and more irritated for the past couple of years from having to drive my car on nice days to go running, and only riding on rainy days when I knew I wouldn't go running. I didn't care that other people thought I was crazy.
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Graeme, I just removed a transmission today, and I made a note of the 'unusual' tools you may need to remove yours .
The bolt at the left lower side of the transmission needs an allen wrench cut down to fit in there it's a 6 mm, I usually put a 6 mm deep socket on the allen wrench and place a long 1/4 th inch drive extension for extra leverage, don't be too surprised if the socket breaks I've had one fail so far make sure it's a Craftsman, they'll replace it no questions asked .
The 10 mm 12 point bolts that hold the drive shaft to the output flange of the transmission, also are a pain to get out .
You may be able to get by using a 'cheater bar' on the wrench to get them 'broken for the first time, they usually make a pretty good 'crack' when they let loose, they are tightened to about 25-30 ft/lbs. of torque .
Ed, it got to 101 F. in the garage, it's still 94 F. at 1800 .
Finally fall is here . [smiley=ROTFLMAO.gif]
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Thanks, Bob! I actually ordered Jeff Trap's driveshaft bolt adapter because I figured I'd run into issues with them. Good thoughts about the transmission bolt, though.
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I haven't seen the tool you are talking about, but if it doesn't fit on the bolt correctly, you may need to grind down the tool so it fits on the bolt head .
There's minimal clearance between the bolt head and the universal joint .
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Bob... this is the adapter. One side fits the bolt and the other side is for a 3/8" socket.
(https://bmwr65.org/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi52.tinypic.com%2Fj61y7b.jpg&hash=39511814ccc00667af21e686fcb8a53dafec69f5)
BTW... I received my gaskets, seals, and tools! I should be able to dive in soon and get the transmission removed and dropped off locally for a rebuild. Then we'll see how bad the clutch looks, and I can finally get to that leaking main seal/oil pump cover!
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That tool is a lot thinner at the 12 point part than the Snap-On tool that I have, I don't think you'll have any problems with it, but if you do, a bit of work on a grinding wheel or hand file will solve the problem .
Do you have a 27 mm socket for the swing arm pivot pin jam nuts ?
I tried something that I don't know if I would recommend or not on loosening and tightening the drive shaft bolts .
I forgot to loosen the bolts prior to removing the rear wheel, the usual method is to tighten the adjuster nut on the rear brake until it stops, then push down hard on the rear brake pedal while loosening or tightening the bolts ,
I already had the swing arm ready to come off of the bike, only thing holding it on was the driveshaft bolts .
So I got a long brass drift and placed it into the yoke of the universal joint so I could get the bolts loose, worked great .
I don't know if it cause any harm to the universal joint or not, but if you forget to loosen the bolts up early on in the process, or if the rear brake won't hold, it's an alternative method .
I definitely wouldn't post this on Boxerworks, as it's finally cooled down here in Phoenix, and I don't want to be on the receiving end of the 'flaming' comments that it surely would generate .
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I have noticed that Jeff Trapp's (http://www.northwoodsairheads.com/index.html) line of tools closely resembles CycleWorks (http://www.cycleworks.net/) (formerly Ed Korn).
And if you are going to use a torque wrench with that driveshaft screw adapter, you will need to compensate mathematically for the length of the tool.
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The torque value for the bolts is 27 +/- 3 foot pounds, figure at best the adapter adds 10 % to the length of the torque wrench, using the low value will be more than sufficient .
Seeing as how a majority of owners don't even torque the bolts, just tighten them up 'til they won't get any tighter, it's probably not a real issue anyway .
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That tool is a lot thinner at the 12 point part than the Snap-On tool that I have, I don't think you'll have any problems with it, but if you do, a bit of work on a grinding wheel or hand file will solve the problem .
Do you have a 27 mm socket for the swing arm pivot pin jam nuts ?
I tried something that I don't know if I would recommend or not on loosening and tightening the drive shaft bolts .
I forgot to loosen the bolts prior to removing the rear wheel, the usual method is to tighten the adjuster nut on the rear brake until it stops, then push down hard on the rear brake pedal while loosening or tightening the bolts ,
I already had the swing arm ready to come off of the bike, only thing holding it on was the driveshaft bolts .
So I got a long brass drift and placed it into the yoke of the universal joint so I could get the bolts loose, worked great .
I don't know if it cause any harm to the universal joint or not, but if you forget to loosen the bolts up early on in the process, or if the rear brake won't hold, it's an alternative method .
I definitely wouldn't post this on Boxerworks, as it's finally cooled down here in Phoenix, and I don't want to be on the receiving end of the 'flaming' comments that it surely would generate .
I did buy the modified swingarm socket. Good to know about torquing down the brake before loosening the driveshaft bolts... I didn't know that.
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Quick question:
Do I need to make sure the cylinders are TDC before I dive in and start working? I'm going to have to remove the flywheel to get to the leaking main seal and/or oil pump cover. So If so, how do I rotate the engine? Obviously, the input splines are shredded so turning the rear wheel doesn't turn the engine over. I know on the old goldwing I have, there is a crankshaft bolt that I can just attach a wrench/socket to and turn the engine over to TDC.
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The position of the pistons in the cylinder make no difference .
You can rotate the engine with the spark plugs removed by inserting a 6 mm allen wrench into the socket head bolt that holds the alternator rotor on .
You've got to go in there anyways, to block the crank shaft before removing the flywheel .
You may want to rotate the engine until a timing mark is visible in the timing hole, just so you get it back on correctly, it will be right on, or one bolt hole off, so there's no guessing about it .
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Rotate the engine like Bob said. (I love my 3/8" ratchet allen socket drivers!)
I've heard it said that you should only rotate the engine forward. I don't know if that is true or not, but forward is clockwise as you are looking at the engine from the front.
And don't forget to disconnect the main ground (and any other grounds that there might be on the negative terminal of the battery) BEFORE REMOVING THE FRONT COVER.
I have a short length of 6mm allen wrench that I put in the alternator bolt before putting the cover back on, with which to block the crank.
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Thanks, fellas. Will definitely be disconnecting the battery before I do any work. Purchased a "crank blocker" from Jeff Trapp as well.
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Getting closer! Just finished up another freelance website design that will pay for the remainder of my transmission rebuild and (potential) new clutch!
I've been trying to sell an old 76 Goldwing basketcase and was recently in-touch with a Goldwing acquaintance who would like to trade the 'wing for some painting services! So I'm giving him the wing and in exchange, he is going to repair the r65's dented gas tank (pull out the dent and fix with tinning compound/lead, etc.) and then repaint the tank, front fender and rear fender, AND hand pinstripe them all to match what my father-in-law had!
I've been thinking I might as well invest in some stainless brake lines, rebuild the brakes, and clean/rebuild the carbs while tranny is being rebuilt.
Hopefully I can have the girl up and running again by the end of January or so. My wife just bought me a HD Flip video camera with handlebar mount so I can't wait to get back out on the road. So sad to see the r65 just sitting there with a layer of dust on it. :'(