The New And Improved Unofficial R65 Forum V2
Technical Discussion => BMW Technical Q&A, Primarily R65 => Topic started by: bjamesw on September 01, 2010, 07:33:16 PM
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Fram filter for many airheads. Nice price and shipping.
http://www.rockauto.com/catalog/raframecatalog.php?catalog=915&partnum=CH6061&a=FR915-CH6061-4552
I've gotten auto parts from these guys half a dozen times before and
so far they've been a real class act with about the lowest prices on the net.
The filter is one piece. Costs 6.75. 67.50 for ten of them. 7.54 shipping. 75.14 total.
I found a link for HiFlo oil filters on Ebay.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=360293134581&crlp=1_263602_263622&ff4=263602_263622&viewitem=&guid=ac0c8c1a12a0a47a47c71707ffff6691&rvr_id=133308619751&ua=WX%3F%3F&itemid=360293134581
Nice price, but 4.21 is the shipping on one unit. I sent an email to confirm a bulk rate for shipping. Without that, the price is a lot less attractive. That puts the price about even with Rock Auto for the Fram.
..postscript... i just clicked through a purchase of 10 filters and the shipping came to 42.10!!!! why the heck do so many ebay vendors do this stuff? They may often just be middlemen who don't physically pack the stuff so cannot pass along savings on bulk orders. But whatever the case, it's pretty irritating to be lured by a great price just to find the shipping wipes out any savings.
OEM is 21 Dollars at the dealer. He said they don't supply the one piece unit any more, only the two piece hinged models. I prefer the single piece since it's more filter media and fewer seals and kinks to possibly cause a problem (peace of mind). I was a little put off by the cost (tho i've actually seen higher) and the parts guy said that they have been unable to source a lower cost alternative unit despite searching.
I checked AutoZone. They list the Fram but cannot even special order it. I went to NAPA just down the street from BMW. They actually had cross referenced filters in stock! I was pretty surprised. It's a PS4945, and it was 11 dollars. A two piece that looks (for what that's worth) identical to the OEM unit. I bought one to get me by for now.
http://www.napafilters.com/filterlookup/motorcycle.asp
(clic on the hyperlink under part # for an image)
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There's been a few posts from members here using non-OEM oil filters .
The filters seem to be prone to collapsing, due to the high oil pressures when the engine is started in cold/cool weather .
Seems like this is one part that it is best to stay with OEM, and get the hinged filter if you can, they seem to be the least prone to collapsing .
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Hucky's is one of several online suppliers. His price is $15. You may be able to find OEM cheaper, but Hucky's has fast service (order Monday, rec. by Fri 48 States) and is friendly to boot.
He has the real, crushable crush rings for your drain/fill plugs, too.
The filters are almost at the bottom of the page.
http://www.bmwhucky.com/007511.html
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I used to buy NAPA filters but they quit making them. Then I got 10 fram filters from Advance Auto. Now they no longer carry them. I gave my brother halve of the ten.
When I changed oil last time the side cover did not fit, I determined that the Fram filter from Advance was a little longer than the filter I was replacing. Stuck a wooden dowel in the rubber gromet on the end and trimed 1/8" with my pocket knive and bolted everything down nice and snug. So far so good.
It seems to me that I have seen 3 filters for 20 something $ with free shipping on ebay, Has anyone bought any ???
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James,
Buy quality OEM filters. Trying to save a couple of dollars with a resulting >$2000 repair due to possible failure doesn't make sense to me. How many times do you change your filter? Twice, three times a year at most? Be sure to measure you canister depth for correct compression of the white O-ring also. Make your measurements and shim determination once and record them and you don't have to repeat. Oil filters should be taken as serious as tires for our airheads. OEM Filters are an accepted annual maintenence expence for me, I normally buy two or three a year at a time with extra shims and O-rings on hand.
Just my opinion.
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I agree with buying OEM HINGED FILTERS ONLY as I had a crushed oil filter once of the single core type bought ala cheapo. Not pretty, it looked as if it had been squished in a vice!
My best friend aka Beemer shop concluded it was due to not warming engine up properly before taking it to the big slab.
Some strong forces live inside the engine, better not fight them.
Domenico
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Check out this thread for measuring the canister depth:
http://www.bmwr65.org/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1269110468/8#8
As well as this. Scroll down just past half. http://www.largiader.com/tech/filters/
Do you have a caliper for measuring?
(https://bmwr65.org/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.largiader.com%2Ftech%2Ffilters%2Fdepth_tn.jpg&hash=5ef2a077f329fac7dbad1ec650fe88322c74e714)
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For the last couple of years I've used the Donit filters sold by Motobins in a kit that has the filter and gaskets plus the crush washers for the drain plugs. I've never had a problem with them and the fit is just right so you can feel when it is seated properly and feel the gaskets compressing as you tighten it up. That kit is $7 and some change depending on the exchange rate. The kit with the OEM filter is about $12.
I've always stuck with the straight filters, but I tend to overmaintain, changing the oil and filters every 2-3000 miles due to my "frequent short trips" riding routine. I guess I've never stressed a filter enough to deform it and never had a problem installing the straight filter, even with the cylinder guards, so I've never felt the need for the hinged type.
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I had a crushed oil filter once of the single core type bought ala cheapo. Not pretty,it looked as if it had been squished in a vice!
For those who haven't seen my post on this some time back my HiFlo filter core also looked like it had been crushed in a vice. I had no symptoms at all. The oil light was off at tickover even as low as 700-800 rpm . The assumption is that the bypass valve allows oil to continue to circulate past a blocked filter in fact this happens even with a good filter at start up.
I believe too high revs at temperatures below freezing to be the cause. I did a lot of research on this when it happened to me and there are even tales of OEM filters including bendy two part filters collapsing but the problem is much more prevalent with non OEM straight filters.
I suffered no major engine damage from the crushed filter as far as know.
Domenico
Do you believe any engine damage occurred as a result of your crushed filter ? (http://)
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I believe too high revs at temperatures below freezing to be the cause.
Free-Zing? What is this freezing phenomenon you're referring to? ;D
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Thick oil due to low temperatures... over zealous application of throttle prior to adequate engine warm up... collapsed oil filter... potential big bucks outlay.
Oh. Wait. Graeme's in Arizona. The state where folks get chilly when the temps drop into the 70's. Good one, Graeme. You almost caught me.
Now, about that tire install... [smiley=steinigung.gif]
Monte
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That crushed perf metal tube has really got me suspicious. I mean c'mon. If the bypass didn't relieve sufficient pressure to keep the oil pump from collapsing a one inch diameter perf metal tube, then NO filter is going to resist that. Good lord guys. Someones got a stuck bypass.
And measuring the canister depth with calipers? I'm as OCD as the best. or worst suffering, bmw owner here, but the soft rubber sealing grommets on each end of the OEM filter are going to provide an oil tight seal anywhere 2mm of either side of perfect. Good lord.
No. The filter I got from NAPA was not a good enough fit for me to buy it again. I did actually note the slightly different cansiter length when installing and removed the amount necessary from the rubber grommet to match the OEM filter perfectly. I'm confident with it in the bike. I'm going to try the one piece FRAM however when I get the chance.
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The oil pressure on a cold airhead engine with outside temps of 40-50 F., is in the area of 100 psi at idle, normal running pressure is around 80 psi when the engine is up to running temperature .
These engines run high oil pressures .
Just curious, no personal offense meant, but how long have you been involved with BMW airhead bikes ?
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Measuring the canister depth is standard procedure on any airhead produced after the /6 series. (They had a different set-up.)
The warnings are everywhere!
http://www.advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?t=331303
My most recent engine came with this installed:
(https://bmwr65.org/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.pbase.com%2Ftomfarr%2Fimage%2F123208797%2Fmedium.jpg&hash=b3da9014c6f0593d88e85497b578db5f017e51c2) (http://www.pbase.com/tomfarr/image/123208797/large) (https://bmwr65.org/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.pbase.com%2Ftomfarr%2Fimage%2F123208795%2Fmedium.jpg&hash=0dfe1f77b1b2658fbe70a81b82105ea6770c3b79) (http://www.pbase.com/tomfarr/image/123208795/large)
click for larger
It is obvious that it needed a paper gasket. It didn't have one.
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Barry,
my bike didn't suffer any consenquences following the crushed oil filter, nor was my mechanic much concerned either.
Still pulling strong and better than ever after removing the pulse air system and a valve lash.
I will check the bypass valve and measure the canister depth next time I'll open her up just in case.
Domenico,
Getting close to 50k miles on R65LS
and 40K miles on K75
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Rob, no offense taken at all. I'm not an expert by any stretch. I've only owned one BMW. Is there an oil bypass valve in this engine? At what PSI does it release pressure on the oil filter when it has clogged solid?
I just find it pretty hard to imagine that that perf tube could collapse if any sort of bypass was in working order. Maybe we don't have one? See what I mean. I don't really know. I'm hardly a mechanic.
Are we suggesting here that the perforated metal tube is of such an inferior stiffness/gauge in the aftermarket filter that it will collapse where an OEM one will hold up? Is that what's happening? Sorry. Don't be offended if I'm skeptical. It just seems extraordinary. Help me a little more to understand the mechanics involved here.
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The OEM filters have a paper or cardboard perforated material around them, not the metal shown in the photo of the collapsed filter .
There's a filter bypass valve located at the end of the cavity where the filter sits, it's spring loaded ball valve .
Some BMW experts say that the bypass valve is open on a cold start, but as stated before the pressure gets quite high .
Measuring the filter canister has been recommended for some time now, just to check what you have, BMW had some quality control problems with the installation of this sleeve in the filter cavity, some were set too deep, which led to oil pressure problems and subsequent engine damage to some bikes .
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Bob,
the perforated metal is in the center of the paper pleated filter acting as a backbone to the oil filter; on the outside there's the perforated pleated paper (filtering element), and over the pleated paper filter there's a perforated paper sleeve.
The squished metal core of my oil filter was very solid, could only be bent /squished with some tool only.
If said bypass valve was not working at the time I will find out on my next oil change, although I don't know if it can be serviced from the canister.
All I know at this point is that there is a steel ball with a spring on the back acting as a resistance to the oil pressure, and when the pressure reach a certain value the ball compresses allowing the oil bypass to occur.
Domenico
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Re: Bypass Ball/Spring
Yes, you have one, and it should be tested on a regular basis. Just poking the ball with a long, thin stick will allow you to judge the spring's tension. If the spring should break, the pieces will find their way to the oil pump! :o
This subject has been explored in depth on Boxerworks, and the initial and best thread is still in recovery on an old database, but these two threads should give you an idea of what is going on.
http://boxerworks.com/phorum5/read.php?3,72523
http://boxerworks.com/phorum5/read.php?3,38546,38546#msg-38546
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While many may run the usual 20W-50 oil in their airheads, I generally run 10W40 in mine. Living up here by the 40th parallel and above, I don't think there is any need for the heavier weight oil. If I were down near Mexico, I might reconsider. I think that the lighter oil is also less of a problem when I go out riding the the spring/fall, when the ambient temps are around 0 C.
I'd better stop now before I turn this into another dreaded oil thread.
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While many may run the usual 20W-50 oil in their airheads, I generally run 10W40 in mine.
I'm with nhmaf on using thinner oil. What passes for summer in the UK means rarely much above 20 deg C and I have exactly the same cooling area as The 650's which means oil temperatures stay low ( never measured above 92 Deg C). I compromise and use 15W/40 and I was definitely not using 20W50 when my filter collapsed. I'd be scared to use that now in the winter.
I'll be poking the bypass valve with a stick at the next change and may put 10W40 in for the winter.
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I use a temperature indicating dipstick as a general guide, once the oil temperature gets to 90 F. (32C.) I don't have any concerns about high oil pressure with heavy throttle usage .
With the six weeks or so of what could be considered 'winter' weather here in south central Arizona, I just keep the 20w50 oil in the bikes all year round .
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The squished metal core of my oil filter was very solid, could only be bent /squished with some tool only.
So did the oil pump, or did it not, collapse the perforated metal tube
within that filter (the image in this thread)? If my aftermarket filter has a perforated metal core, should I be worried about the pressure of the oil system collapsing it if the media has insufficient flow and the bypass is not working?
And I just read the following, mind bogglingly exhaustive, treatise on airhead oil filters.
http://bmwmotorcycletech.info/Oil.htm
Can someone please distill those vast contents into what specfically applies to the R65? Or is it still a question of years/models?
Do we use the paper gasket supplied with the filter? Don't use the paper gasket? How to use the metal shim? Snowbum writes
"28. METAL SHIM:
In late 1978 the factory began adding the metal shim. It was then available separately, and the part number is: 11-42-1-336-895. It is approximately .011" in thickness, and of diameter to match the outer face of the oil canister. No, it won't slide down into the oil pan! The earliest of these shims was made in such a way that one side had a sharp edge. If you have one of those, the sharp side goes INwards, and contacts the canister. The shim is installed immediately, that is, it is the NEXT ITEM, after installing the filter itself. The purpose of this shim, now packaged with most filter 'kits', is, as noted above, to keep the canister end edge from cutting the critical large white O-ring, part number 11-42-1-337-098; and, to increase the pressure on that O-ring. The metal shim DOES NOT fit against the 'cover', rather, it fits against the canister."
Say what? And there's no diagram for this. You don't install by putting the metal shim on the cover first? What??? I don't see any other way to put it together?
I completely apologize for my earlier remarks about not measuring the filter depth and a few mm not making a difference. If Snowbum is to be believed here, and he's pretty much accepted as an oracle, then oil filters on the airheads are something of a dark art in which even sticking with OEM parts wont keep you out of the woods. This stuff is almost scary.
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The metal shim goes on first, then the large o-ring .
I don't know how anyone else does it, but I install the metal shim, then place the o-ring on the filter cover, seems to help prevent cutting the o-ring .
Measuring the depth of the lip inside of the oil filter cavity is how you determine if the gasket should be used, or in a rare case, an additional metal shim may need to be installed .
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There are two places the metal shim can go, on one side of the large o-ring, or the other. You want it on the side of the o-ring closest to the engine. Furthest away from the filter cover.
The shim's main purpose is to protect the o-ring from damage.
If your canister is too far into the engine, you may need to make up for it with an extra shim.
If your canister is not far enough into the engine, you may need a paper gasket to "shim" the cover away from the engine and canister, so the large o-ring is not over-compressed.
Unless I need it for shimming purposes, I don't use the paper gasket. My latest engine requires one.
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James,
The metal shim goes on first, against the canister edge recessed just inside the engine case, then the large o-ring (as Bob describes can be slipped on the filter cover). You need to make the measurements to determine if you need the paper cover gasket. You can also tell by looking at your white rubber o-ring after it's been installed and the cover bolted down. If it's squared off you most likely have adequate compression. If it's perfectly round - not enough compression. It's best to make the measurements to determine what combination is best.
I prefer Oak's method, see if this makes sense to you...
If not, contact me off list I can walk you through it on the phone. It's important you understand this.
Mike V
Senior Member
78 R100/7 Spcl., 81 R65
Posts: 435
San Diego, CA
Re: Crushed Oil Filter / O-ring Compression Criteria
Reply #27 - 03/29/10 at 22:43:45
I wanted to share Oak's percentage formula with all those who aren't aware of it. It's a pretty simple formula based on a target 10% to 25% O-ring compression. From an old Airmail Airtech article titled "$2000 O-Ring Revisited - Critical Installation Criteria". Oak's formula works well for me and is nice and simple when you wrap your head around it.
Basically...
O-ring + shim - cover gasket (if used) - measured cannister depth / O-ring x 100 = % O-ring Compression. Target is 10 % to 25%.
Here's my numbers plugged in from my 81 R65,
4.0 + 0.3 -3.6 / 4.0 x 100 = 17.5% (no cover gasket used)
Constants:
O-ring = 4.0 mm
Shim = 0.3 mm
Cover Gasket = 0.5 mm
As Oak states in the article "if less than 10% or more than 25% adjustments are needed. Different trials can be made with more shims or the use of the cover gasket.
As a reminder; always use a precision depth gauge when measuring your cannister depth and a good idea to check your new shim, gasket and O-ring thickness as I learned to do thanks to Barry. A check with new filter parts in the box revealed the above values to be in conformance with my measurements.
Back to top
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Mike V. / San Diego
'78 R100/7
'81 R65
View my 650 restoration project at...
http://s428.photobucket.com/albums/qq8/gruntyman66/81%20R650%20Restoration/
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That is a great formula, Mike. Thanks!
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So did the oil pump, or did it not,collapse the perforated metal tube
I believe what happens is that the filter pleats kink then start to fold flat which significantly reduces the filter area which means more pressure drop across the filter until it collapses the inner support tube.
I also believe that a contributing factor to kinking of the pleats might be too much axial force resulting from improper shimming. I had been leaving out the paper gasket. When changing filters they were coming out with the pleats slightly kinked even when the filter hadn't collapsed. Variation in length of the non OEM filter won't help.
Should it be impossible to collapse a filter if the bypass is working OK ?
That's why I'm going to poke that valve with a stick at the next oil change.
Here's my own calculations on the need for shims and gaskets. My tip is that as well as measuring the canister depth also measure the thickness of your own gasket, shim and O ring then use those figures in your deliberations.
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Thanks for all the info here everyone. It appears that I've been regularly placing the shim incorrectly for many years. Since no instructions came with filters it seemed to make perfect sense to put the shim over the extended portion of the cover, where it fits a bit tightly but otherwise where it seems intended, with the oring over it. Now that I'm stopping to think about it, the shim makes little sense here. All the while I've had it on the wrong side of the Oring. But the Orings I've replaced with each filter have always been squared upon removal and never torn, pinched, or shredded. Basically then, despite placing the shim incorrectly, I've been lucky in not needing it in the first place.
As far as the inner perforated tube collapse is concerned, there seems to be no "right" or "wrong" on this, but a little of both. Here are a couple of posts on a thread from another forum on this subject...
Diagnosing Engine Oil Filters With Collapsed Center Tubes
When a collapsed center tube or element is discovered, the natural tendency is to assume something is wrong with the filter (Fig. 1). This is not the case, but is a symptom of problems with internal engine components.
Most engines incorporate within the oiling system a by-pass valve across the inlet and outlet of the full flow oil filter. The valve is designed to open and by-pass oil around the filter and/or element when the restriction reaches its opening pressure (Fig. 2). The by-pass flow circuit insures oil flow to the engine when there is a significant restriction across the filter due to plugging or cold start conditions. Typically, engine manufacturers design by-pass valves to open at a pressure differential of approximately 10 to 30 psid with some as low as 4 psid (28 kPad), with some opening as high as 75 psid (500 kPad). Some engine manufacturers have the by-pass valve located in the filter mounting base on the engine, while others locate the valve in the filter. Either way, the same purpose is served.
more here
http://www.filtercouncil.org/techdata/tsbs/88-3R2.html
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When they were new motorcycles, many /7s collapsed their OEM filters in cool weather and/or when the motor was revved with the motor cold. To combat this, a reinforcing ring was installed in the center of the standard filter.
The hinged filter does not require this because it's sections are so short, effectively giving it reinforcement in two places.
The oil pressure relief valve can only pass a small quantity of oil, which must first get past the camshaft front bushing ('70-'80) and front main bearing.
The filter bypass may open in cold conditions, but it, too, has a rather small opening. The bottom line is to be gentle with a cold engine, especially when using a high viscosity oil.
If you are using aftermarket filters, check whether they have the reinforcing ring in them.
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If you are using aftermarket filters, check whether they have the reinforcing ring in them.
Hiflo filters do not have the reinforcing ring.
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James,
There "is" a reason for the metal shim. On early models the canister has a sharp edge and the shim helps protect the o-ring from getting cut or damaged from the canister lip. It also helps distribute even force on the o-ring. It's not manditory. I know of a lot of airheads not using them. The main goal here is to make sure the o-ring has adequate compression and sealing properties. Don't mean to push this thread to exhaustion, you've received some pretty helpful information, lots of very good knowledge and experience on this forum. Good to know your o-ring appears it's been doing the job. Here's a link to clarify the sequence of installation for the metal shim (#6). I wanted to attach this to be sure the installation sequence was clear. Personally; I think canister depth measurement should be SOP for this exercise. Just my opinion, doesn't make it right and once it's done and recorded it results in correct compression...and piece of mind. Sorry to deflect any attention regarding the filter collapse - but it's (possibly) all related and the process of elimination is important. OEM filter, canister depth measurement, o-ring & shim installation, start-up procedure, oil viscosity, by-pass valve.
http://www.realoem.com/bmw/showparts.do?model=0364&mospid=51897&btnr=11_1721&hg=11&fg=35
Monte, you out there?
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If you are wondering about item number 7, o-rings, the earlier version of this filter didn't have any seals incorporated into the filter body, there were o-rings on the tube in the engine, and one on the filter cover .
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Great point Bob - thanks for the clarification, the fiche shows the outdated filters with filter rings.
Gone riding...
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Monte, you out there?
Yep. And enjoying every minute reading of the education of a new airhead rider. Is that a double entendre?
I'm [smiley=thumbup.gif] with you Mike, Barry, Bob, Rob and NH Mike. Y'all all correct.
Monte
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Would someone please illustrate this with photos?
I posted a few over at advrider
http://www.advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?t=617367
Does the oring need to seal the edge of that barrel that surrounds the filter? If not, then all makes good sense and I'm fine.
Were the old style filters that much larger? The present filter does not come anywhere near contacting the oring. The shim was originally introduced to protect the oring from the filter's sharp edge?
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The Picture on advrider showing the filter cover is the right way but the shim is on upside down. The shim has a curve to it that goes next to the oring.
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The o-ring seals the filter cover, the paper gasket isn't up to the job, the three bolts that hold the filter cover on strip out the threads in the aluminum case quite readily, so can't tighten up the three bolts to do any real good .
If you cut the o-ring during reassembly, the oil comes out from under the filter cover after you start the engine .
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I cut an o-ring about 6 years ago. I don't know how, but I know that when I got to the gas station a few blocks from my home, I almost fell when I put my right foot down and there was oil on the ground!
Be sure and check for leaks the first time starting after a filter change. Maybe look at it once a week while the bike is warming up.
And most of the fasteners on these bikes are tapping into aluminum castings, so the aluminum threads are going to strip if you try to tighten things to get oil to quit coming out.
I have personally stripped a driveshaft drain plug in attempt to stop a drip. In my defense, that was in my early years, back when every dealer was an airhead-friendly dealer! lol! (They performed the installation of a helicoil.)
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bjamesw,
Nice photo's on Avrider.
For clarity Anton Largiaders section drawings make it all crystal clear
other than he shows an oil cooler type installation. This makes no difference to the location of the O ring and shim.
http://www.largiader.com/tech/filters/canister.html
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I have been using the WIX "bendy" filters for quite some time. Far easier to install than the one-piece filter.
The WIX product is well respected among the Airhead cognoscenti. The attached link is my vendor in Colorado. Buy a package of two or more and the shipping is free. Fair pricing.
http://stores.ebay.com/filtercycle/_i.html?_nkw=BMW&submit=Search&_sid=20143097
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If you want to stay OEM (while saving a few bux) then order the corresponding Mahle filters as they make them for BMW...
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The oring measures 4mm. The shim measures .3mm. This is true for the OEM and it was precisely true for the parts I just installed from NAPA.
I just instigated a little tiff over at advrider for posting an image and graph taken as captures from articles on the net that adress this whole airhead filter question. Well, my posting was called "crap" anyway, if that rates a tiff.
I was trying to offer some ABC for anyone stymied by the sheer embarassment of richness in detail afforded to this topic. The article suggested arriving at something close to 3.3mm as an ideal offset for the 4mm oring to squish into. And the image offered no doubt as to the placement of the shim. 3.3 can be arrived at by whatever combination of shims and gaskets you prefer. Sounded fine to me. Puts it at a little shy of 25percent squish rate for the ring.
I failed to notice that the original author of the content was in fact a thread participant so he, naturally, took offence to the plagarism. 3.3mm was a hunch, and apparantly nothing that he felt he personally should be held fast to (I'd left that disclaimer out of my reprinting). Fair enough. Honestly! So that still begs the question...
...if not 3.3mm... what should we aim for?
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The ~25% "squeeze" of the white O-ring is the generally accepted amount by many airhead gurus, most of which are too busy/wise to bother with the ADV rider forum, (except for Anton L) but in any case, that should be the goal for anyone with an airhead to service. Going to more than 50% or more squeeze is much more likely to result in a slipped or cut O-ring, so while there is some practical upper limit, it is still a rule of thumb. Too little compression of the O-ring can result in incomplete sealing, which causes loss of oil pressure which in turn, can be fatal to the engine, so most everyone goes for the middle of the "squish range" that will most likely ensure good tight sealing, generally avoid cutting or slippage of the O-ring, and not require so much torque as to pull threads out of the engine casing when turning the oil cover bolts snug. Bob Fleischer (snowbum), Paul Glaves, and many other well published airhead experts all follow/proclaim these practices, and we the faithful learn and follow their lead. They know far more about these bikes than most of us will ever know.
What further confuses things is that BMW had (2) somewhat similar, but different designs during the period of /5 models in 1970 through 1995, and, there are some significant "variances" in the tolerance of the dreaded "oil canister" of either design. This results in people doing things in various ways for various reasons - only some of which are based in logic. The key thing for you to remember is to determine the proper stack up for your particular airhead, and then be consistent with following that method to achieve to proper amount of O-ring sealing. In the vast majority of airheads using the canister design of your bike, they need the metal shim, though in at least some cases, it might be possible to do without it. With the situation in my bike, I know that if I didn't use the metal shim, I'd likely end up with a slipped/cut O-ring and problems with sealing.
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nhmaf
I might of missed something but Just to clarify when you mentioned 25% and 50 % squeeze did you mean 0.25mm and 0.5mm compression ?
If we are talking about 25% squeeze of the O ring diameter then 25% of 4.00mm is 1.00 mm compression. I think that's just a little too much and may extrude the O ring past being square. I don't go beyond 0.8mm compression. (at least not since I had a crushed oil filter).
I guess what I'm saying is 25% (or 1mm) compression may just be acceptable but it is the absolute upper limit and not the target to aim for. The reasoning is a 4mm O ring will fill a 4mm X 4mm slot at approx. 21.5% compression. That's why I set the upper limit in my table a little lower at 0.8 mm.
There is another issue to consider. When I measured the canister depth I found it was not even all the way around and I suspect others will be the same so unless you are very careful to average the depth readings it can be another reason to use a little less than the maximum compression or risk extruding the O ring past square.
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Hi Barry,
I meant ~ 25%, so ~ 1mm, as a very general/rough target - actually anything above 15% and below 25% is probably fine. O-rings squeezed to an amount approaching 50% often show evidence of twisting, cutting or other things which can compromise the seal and should be avoided.
Many folks will say that as long as the O-ring has a somewhat more "squared" looking appeaprance when removed for periodic oil/filter changes indicate that the amount of compression is good. Not mashed flat, not squashed to the point where it is only 2mm thick, but still recognizable as once being round in cross section.
So, in my book anyway, 18% is good, 20% is good, even 25% can be good, but 50% or 5%...nope. 25% as an upper limit is fine, but I think that if someone's number come out to be 28% or 30% will the engine explode - I don't believe so - but I agree that going above 25% increases chances of O ring damage.
You bring up a good point about the canister depths not always being consistent all the way 'round. The canister is just a sheet metal stamping that is inserted in the engine case cavity, and it is entirely possible that there is some variation. Many guys I know typically measure the depth around the canister at several places, and as long as one reading isn't grossly different from the others use the average for determining paper shim, etc. usage to adjust for proper compression.
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I just instigated a little tiff over at advrider for posting an image and graph taken as captures from articles on the net that adress this whole airhead filter question. Well, my posting was called "crap" anyway, if that rates a tiff.
Looking on the brighter side, the folks on Boxerworks might have burned your jockey shorts plumb off. ::)
Here on R65 dot org, you've gotten some good info without creating a "crappy tiff". [smiley=thumbup.gif]
Monte
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I do understand Anton's point about excerpting from his article and posting what I believed to be a useful condensation. Not my call. He'd rather have it seen in whole. I was only a little taken back by the hostility. He might have just pointed out the problem and I'd have been fine.
I know there's a lot of "hey it's the internet... get used to bad behavior" sentiment around. I don't buy it.
For my part I ought to be more straightforward, less sarcastic, offer less silly humor. That just seems to invite 'no holds barred'.
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Advrider is one of the roughest-playing forums that I know of, IMO, of course, but that thread looks pretty tame.
I though Anton was VERY nice to you, IMO.
It is very easy to cut & paste what you want from their website, and on a PC with Firefox (don't know about Mac) you can right-click on any picture, select "Copy Image Location" and then come to your post and click the (https://bmwr65.org/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F+button%2C+and+paste+in+between+the+codes.%3Cbr+%2F%3E%3Cbr+%2F%3EYou+can+then+post+a+link+to+the+page+where+you+got+the+information%2C+satisfying+the+author.%3Cbr+%2F%3E%3Cbr+%2F%3E%5Bhr%5D%3Cbr+%2F%3E%3Cbr+%2F%3E%5Bi%5DThe+recessed+cover+seals+the+engine+case+and+the+filter+housing+at+the+same+time.+The+white+O-ring+is+what+actually+seals+the+canister+from+the+case.+This+takes+the+short+filter.%5B%2Fi%5D%3Cbr+%2F%3E%3Cbr+%2F%3E%5Bimg%5Dhttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.largiader.com%2Ftech%2Ffilters%2Frecessedt.jpg&hash=d2b5666ed5be8e6c01175ef700a0a8189b01a5e6)
http://www.largiader.com/tech/filters/
The only time I will copy an online image and post it on my PBase account is because the original image was too large, and I wanted a smaller copy for posting with. I either contact the owner for permission or I put a link on my PBase page to the source.
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Here on R65 dot org, you've gotten some good info without creating a "crappy tiff".
Monte
Well said Monte, without getting into all the other baggage that seemed to get drug into this very important thread; james - it's important you have a clear understanding of the measurements and procedure for whats been discussed. If you're still not clear let us know. There's always going to be more than one way to do something, it's up to you to decide which one you prefer, just like the use of forums. I'm confident you'll always get a fair, kind shake here. Sometimes things sound worse than they really are.
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Mike makes a good point.
Some of us and I particularly include myself in this, rather enjoy that what should be a simple thing like an oil filter change can be technically difficult. You can blame BMW in the first instance for what is without doubt a bad piece of design but we do revel in a bit.
Anyway my advice is do your own measurements and write them down and draw a conclusion. It has to be done correctly but it's really very straight forward.
If anyone is still unsure do the measurements and post them up here for comment.
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Incidentally, why was the canister not sealed against the case at the point we're discussing anyway? There would seem to be some reason for the gap there. I can't figure it out.
And Rob, I really, really, truly and honestly, do not want to instigate anything here either. But I wonder how you might determine that calling my sincere attempt to help others "crap" instead of merely pointing out the error of my ways without insult could be seen as being very nice to me, In fact you said you thought it was VERY nice to me. You and I seem to have a dramatically different perception of nice. And, again, that's what I mean about this "it's the internet, get used to it" sort of mentality. I don't buy it. I hope you dont.
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I can only reiterate what I said about the ADVrider forum, before. "Crap" is a very mild term on that forum.
I have a total of 14 posts on ADV. I joined 7 years ago...
About the only time I go there, is when someone posts a link to the site.
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I generally agree with Rob - the ADV forum is definitely more "wild west" than here in our little corner of the net, and "crap" is a very mild term in that environ. While I haven't met him face to face, Anton generally isn't a bad guy - like anyone he can have his moments but for the most part I think that he is a very helpful and highly experienced. I may even be sending him a transmission to rebuild this winter.
I'd advise to not get too worked up over it and it will all be forgotten in time. Anton L and Bob F spend alot of time putting info on their website to the benefit of many, and they may get a bit protective of the material in part because they put alot of effort into it, and in part because they don't want the info to be misconstrued/misinterpreted by being taken out of context --- I think.
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Incidentally, why was the canister not sealed against the case at the point we're discussing anyway?There would seem to be some reason for the gap there.I can't figure it out.
There's no particular reason that I can think of. As I said before if anything is "crap" about this topic it's BMW's design although I believe the reason it's bad is because of the adaptation to allow oil cooler connections. The original /5 system with an inner cover which sealed the filter was OK and had no white O ring.
We love our airheads but still you shouldn't need a vernier gauge to change an oil filter. It's bad design or at least a bad development of the original design and we have to live with it.
I think Anton's web site is the best overall info with images available on this topic and I notice he has continued to expand it to include the bypass valve. The only thing he stops short of is giving you a target O ring compression to aim for. He gives a range because in fact that's what you need in practice and also because he wants to make the reader think and understand the issue.
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Gee guys. The first thing I did with my bike was change the oil and replace the filter, in the PO's garage before I rode it home in fact. Every filter change I've done, the new filter fit right and I've never thought anything of it. :-/ The only struggle I've ever had with the filter change is getting the cover plate to clear the frame tube putting it back on. Never having had a problem, I've never felt compelled to measure anything.
John, Blissfully Ignorant, McC
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What I think is funny about this $2000.00 oring is. I have had my 82 R65 since new. Have been a member of BMWMOA the same amount of time and was a BMWRA member for a few years. I cannot remember anything being wrote in any of those publication until the last few years. The first time I heard about this was just a few years a when the BMWMOA fourm came on. I realy think it is more about the oring and shim being installed right. I have never check mine, I have looked at the oring and shows some sign of compression and has always. I had a friend do a oil change and did not see the shim fall in the oil pan. He put everything back with out the shim. Starting oil light went out but running the RPM's up the light came on RPM's back to idle light would go out. After finding out he change the oil the day before. I had him remove the cover and I saw the shim missing. Thats when we looked where dump the oil and found the shim. Installed shim engine ran with no problems on the oil light also the was a R100 with an oil cooler. I think as long as the oil filter is change and everything is put back the way the factory had it at the time the engine was put together you should not have a problem with this. I a engine is overhaul or dissassemble and the oil canster is removed than this is something that should be check and should not be a problem after this.
Don
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I wondered why BMW didn't just didn't redesign the filter cover and then have a groove machined into the filter cover where the o-ring would sit, a simple solution to the problem .
I agree with Don that this 'problem' has taken on a life that is a bit beyond it's significance .