The New And Improved Unofficial R65 Forum V2
Technical Discussion => BMW Technical Q&A, Primarily R65 => Topic started by: azcycle on August 03, 2010, 07:58:01 PM
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The Kenda knobby (270 for those interested) on the back of the r65 was at the end of it's lifespan, and while I did enjoy the traction for my jaunt up the local mountain's forestry control road, I don't like the way the Kendas perform on pavement. Accurately described by an ADVrider as: "like riding on gummy bears..." and I tend to agree. Cornering... REAL cornering... is not a fun experience. This being my first motorcycle (the 250cc scooter doesn't count), I think the rather unstable feeling tires have taught me a lot, but it's time for some confidence-inspiring rubber. Plus, I want to KEEP this bike as long as I can, so I know it's part-breaking, bolt-loosening, off-roading days are most likely (mostly) over.
So browsing for ways to empty my bank account (which is already low trying to pay for our upcoming wedding in September), I found out that Bike Bandit had some pretty good deals. I first dropped some Dunlop 404s into "my cart" but quickly removed them after reading the horrible reviews on them.
However, I found these Shinko 712s on sale for $45/each, and the reviews were (mostly) positive. In the basket they went, and because I'm tempted to mount 'em myself ghetto* style, I purchased a couple tubes, tire levers (which I should have anyway) and some rim weights. Additionally, I purchased a bunch of oil changing shims, spacers, and o-rings so I can undertake the famous "airhead oil change"... I understand it is the most complex oil change ever invented, thanks to those brilliant German engineers. (I have yet to purchase the NASA approved digital calipers for measuring o-ring micro-tolerances.)
So onto the point.... look what the man in brown (UPS for those unknowing) brought me today! Shinko 712s (Tubeless), 100/90-18 for the front, and 110/90-18 for the rear.
(https://bmwr65.org/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Finlinethumb51.webshots.com%2F44146%2F2407739150100726353S600x600Q85.jpg&hash=6bee434bafed73fd8ceb987270df76c44e82512e)
I'm still slightly considering taking them to a shop to mount, but I'm a cheap bastid and the experience would be good for me. I've mounted hundreds (well dozens) of bicycle tires, so this should be easy... just bigger, right? ;D ) yeah, yeah I hear you laughing in the back....
I've looked around the Intrawebinetz and have read that mounting tubeless tires to tube-type wheels is fine (along with a tube, of course). But of course everything on the 'web is 100% accurate and truthful (notice tongue-in-cheek here) so I just want to verify that with ya'll. Tubeless tires ARE okay to mount to tube-style rims with appropriate tubes, etc?
And that's not all! Removing the rear wheel for the new tire will also allow me to:
- lube final drive splines
- replace damaged rear fender (thanks to the overly-large Kenda) with an Ebay fender-gem I got for $25!
- replace broken rear tail light (which is currently being held on by electrical tape and mini-bungee cords. Also an Ebay treasure find.
So stay tuned as I try to document my newbie flailing struggles for science (or your entertainment more likely)....
* lots of 2x4s, home-made truing stand, bicycle floor pump, sliced up plastic milk cartons, and a plethora of creative words and phrases.
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Tubeless tires are ok, but you are, indeed, in for a character (and vocabulary) building exercise.
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So browsing for ways to empty my bank account (which is already low trying to pay for our upcoming wedding in September)
A man who's keep his bike when he gets married - we are proud of you ! I had to sell a brand new Z900 when I got married back in 77 :-[
Any way the tires - tube in a tubeless tire is ok but the speed rating is lowered one step, usually not a problem. Get them nice and warm in the sun before fitting and use lubricant.
Popping the beads can be the hardest part depending on the tire manufacturer, some seem to be much harder than others, expect to use at least 50 - 60 psi. Cleaning and polishing the inside of the rim will help.
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tire changes aren't that bad. There's a good write up (with pictures!) over at ADVriders. I think it's in the Garage section. anyway, it is a good skill to have, but some places local to me do it so cheap and fast, that I usually take it there. You should do it at least a couple of times. Have a good plan, and a spare tube or two on hand in case you pinch the tube.
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Get the new tires nice and warm, and they will go on more easily. I have a little wedge shaped beadbreaker from the Aerostitch company that was pretty cheap and works great.
I bought a gallon of tire lube from Napa that will probably last me for the next 30 years.
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Tubeless tires ARE okay to mount to tube-style rims with appropriate tubes, etc?
Yes. The "but" added to the yes is that I suspect that there will be more heat buildup with tubes than there would be tubeless. I recall reading some R65 rider comments about not trusting the snowflake wheels (at least the earlier ones) for tubeless use. I guess it's a matter of personal comfort. Anyway, do we really need V-rated rubber for our R65s? ;) (I had never heard Barry's comment that the speed rating would be one step lower, but it sure makes sense.)
My father didn't trust tubeless tires for a long time after they arrived on the market. A belt-and-suspenders type (at least with vehicles), he ran tubes in his tubeless automobile tires quite some time.
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Ah, yes... Breaking the old tire's bead off the rim. Ugh!
I knocked out a 2x4 stud with a short-ish 4-inch piece screwed on perpendicular to the long stick; about two feet from one end.
Placed the short end of the stud under my roll-away tool cabinet, the short perpendicular bit sits on the bead and you plant your arse on the other end. Urethra! It works...
Or you might try a very large C-clamp.
I'm running tubeless Bridgestone Spitfire S-11s on my '81 R65... tubeless. Two years and no issues. You'll obviously need a tubeless valve stem but you can eliminate the weight of the tube, its incessant air bleed down plus some unwanted tire heating during longer rides.
Encourage anyone doing this tubeless transition to be absolutely sure there are no sharp spurs on the inside of the rim where it mates with the tire bead. Smooth rims. Ride happy.
Avoid using water with any tire lube. Possible corrosion inside the rim is always an unknown.
Monte
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So browsing for ways to empty my bank account (which is already low trying to pay for our upcoming wedding in September)
A man who's keep his bike when he gets married - we are proud of you ! I had to sell a brand new Z900 when I got married back in 77 :-[
Ah, my future wife is the one that GAVE me the r65! She was the one that inherited it and she encourages me to keep the bike in good shape. Of course, I'm sure in the (hopefully far away) future, when it needs engine or transmission work, she'll remember that...
I'm not going 100% tubeless. I will still run tubes... i just wanted to make sure it was safe/okay to run tubes inside the tubeless tires. A trick for bicycle tires to reduce friction between the tire and tube is to put a bit of baby powder inside the tire. Any thoughts on that?
Thanks all. My order was split up and shipped separately so while I have the tires, the levers and tubes are still in limbo so this project will have to wait until next weekend...
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As you will be spending several hours on your hands n' knees while mounting tires, I suggest you dump a large dose of that baby powder in your jockey shorts. Prevents serious chaffing... plus, it's pretty good for the tubes, too.
;D Monte
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Yesterday brought the rest of my goodies: New set of 3 tire irons of various sizes, and tubes. Once I get my center stand back working and stable, Saturday is going to be an.... interesting... day.
Got to pick up some moly60 for the rear splines somewhere, too...
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...Got to pick up some moly60 for the rear splines somewhere, too...
Honda shop. Small 'cylinder' package with, I think, a big price.
Monte
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You'll be fine - just very tired - at the end of the day.
Use the talc powder on the tube (and your shorts) to start with.
90% of us are all running tubes in modern tires - it is perfectly fine and there are alot of modern cruisers out there with wire spoke wheels still running tubes. Unless you get an "S" rated tire, (112 MPH, I think) the speed rating decrement won't be any issue at all for an airhead of any displacement. H or V or Z are all fine.
Be sure to support the wheel off the ground - especially the front wheel - so you don't bend/mangle your front disc rotor. And/or remove the rotor to avoid bending it - new ones are expensive.
Only remove 1 wheel at a time and be sure to block up the bike on its centerstand so it is stable.
Moly-60 is good stuff, but if you cannot get it at least still clean out the old grease and put in some good sticky grease on those drive splines. A small brush / popsicle stick or an old toothbrush work pretty well to get the grease coated into the nooks and crannies of the splines without overloading the orifice with grease - don't want alot of excess flying out and runing your brake shoes.
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Thanks! I might take a lunch-hour trip to the local Honda shop... always nice to go out for a ride, but of course it's going to be over 100 degrees too. erg. Huh... I actually DO have some grease I bought at the local motorcycle superstore "RideNow" that says it is for motorcycle final drives. Forgot about that.
I should probably measure the brake shoe life before I take the bike out of commission, too. If they're close, might as well just replace those while the wheel is off.
This is turning into an expensive tear down! :D
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I should probably measure the brake shoe life before I take the bike out of commission, too.If they're close, might as well just replace those while the wheel is off.
Rear brake shoes tend to last a very long time maybe the life of the bike so unless yours is high mileage or they are contaminated you may not need them.
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I should probably measure the brake shoe life before I take the bike out of commission, too.If they're close, might as well just replace those while the wheel is off.
Rear brake shoes tend to last a very long time maybe the life of the bike so unless yours is high mileage or they are contaminated you may not need them.
That's good to know. Unknown mileage on my bike but estimate about 55k.
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Alright fellas (and ladies), I am 95% done, and ran into my only snag today, and I need your advice. It's regarding the bead setting for the new tires.
The rear tire went on beautifully but the front tire is giving me a small issue where the tire isn't fully set in two areas, one on either side of the tire. I can see by the line around the circumference that the bead is popped in all the way around EXCEPT for these two small, maybe 5" long areas. I have pumped more than 65psi in there, bounced the tire, and they still won't give that final little pop!
Is there a trick to getting them to seat? More PSI? I'm letting it sit overnight with the 65psi in it and hopefully it will pop in.
Thoughts?
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Ahh, seating tires is a manly sport. I have had good luck putting a tie down strap around the middle of the uniflated tire and then airing up. It also helps to remove the valve core while seating the bead.
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I add a bit of WD-40 -it will evaporate away- then put 100psi in the tire and place it in the sun. You'll actually hear the bead pop into place... eventually.
And Graeme, if the bead issue was your biggest problem of the day... YOU DA MAN! [smiley=beerchug.gif]
Monte
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If not seated by morning, personally I'd let most of the air out again so that I could push down on the tire/bead again and ensure that there wasn't something stuck in the way, a bit of tube pinched in there, or some old dirt/crud stuck to the inside of the wheel rim surface. If all good, try it over again.
I think that if you need to you could go to higher air pressure without explosion. How much - I am not sure, but I've gone as high as 100 PSI on some tubeless tires before trying to get them to seat.
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Got it! Went to Home Depot and got a $4 ratcheting strap. Let all the air out, wrapped it around and cinched it down. Then sprayed some glass cleaner around the spots that weren't popping, and aired it up. Got it up to about 45psi, released the strap, and then continued to pump, with a bit more window cleaner. It popped in at 80psi.
It's too friggin hot to finish right now so I'll wait until this evening to balance and mount the front, and I'll post pics.
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Alright... I've been successful, and frankly it went MUCH better than I thought it would! Even with the 105 degree day yesterday (notice fan in the picture!) it was a fun day tinkering on the bike.
I started with this:
(https://bmwr65.org/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Flh3.ggpht.com%2F_78IZhoIuYiU%2FTGhx_c3lL9I%2FAAAAAAAAAFE%2FlW5VIoI8KqE%2Fs800%2FDSC03711.JPG&hash=da94895fdcc35e6485c9a5f11b88da4645bdda2b)
The rear fender had been chewed up by the wide knobby tire, so I found a clean replacement for only $25 on Ebay! It doesn't have the cool black paint with white pinstripes but I figure I'll pull it and paint it like my father-in-law had when I get the fuel tank repainted.
I also had to replace the tail light because one of the lens mounts snapped, leaving the lens rattling around. Additionally, this has been a bit of an eyesore and I was thankful that the new tail light assembly I got on ebay had an untouched wiring loom. So that was on the agenda to replace.
(https://bmwr65.org/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Flh4.ggpht.com%2F_78IZhoIuYiU%2FTGhyAbbKBsI%2FAAAAAAAAAFM%2Ft61C7jTZmWg%2Fs800%2FDSC03713.JPG&hash=96ebacd6c823c53408d33d4bec4c2ff01b91429a)
After a frustrating hour or so trying to remove the saddlebags and rear fender, I'm finally making some progress!
(https://bmwr65.org/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Flh4.ggpht.com%2F_78IZhoIuYiU%2FTGhyA3lsQEI%2FAAAAAAAAAFQ%2F3iKmpzNzMUU%2Fs800%2FDSC03714.JPG&hash=e0f226afd422cc3f40668341c36daadc00a83d2e)
Found out why the rear tire had a slow leak... embarassed to admit I hadn't been diligent in checking the tires for damage, etc. I certainly will from now on. It barely went through the tire, and put the tiniest pinhole in the tube. I'd lose about 4lbs pressre per week.
(https://bmwr65.org/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Flh4.ggpht.com%2F_78IZhoIuYiU%2FTGhyBVpqAgI%2FAAAAAAAAAFU%2Fqb_NvZt9xe8%2Fs800%2FDSC03715.JPG&hash=eada9f493a0ede2ed33a426701f1b0eb803db7e7)
I was very relieved to see the splines looked perfect! That isn't rust but old grease. Cleaned it up and put on another very thin coat. The rear brake pads have a lot of life left in them, too.
(https://bmwr65.org/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Flh6.ggpht.com%2F_78IZhoIuYiU%2FTGhyCG_5csI%2FAAAAAAAAAFc%2FW7Yb-qxN2wU%2Fs800%2FDSC03717.JPG&hash=6e45e76dca50dbc5b9745c3143369fd0390dc18c)
(https://bmwr65.org/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Flh5.ggpht.com%2F_78IZhoIuYiU%2FTGhyCYK3jxI%2FAAAAAAAAAFg%2FD39T-mXE1ak%2Fs800%2FDSC03718.JPG&hash=4386b072f9dd575135d54dfda290255395ea4db2)
I had plenty of 2x4s lying around so I thought I'd try this method of popping the beads off the rims. Worked like a charm!
(https://bmwr65.org/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Flh6.ggpht.com%2F_78IZhoIuYiU%2FTGhyC6CuQxI%2FAAAAAAAAAFk%2FsYefKig4RQE%2Fs800%2FDSC03719.JPG&hash=671dfe44971dc722fca2cedb43cdfa50dd1b7646)
Rear tire mounted very easily with a little light misting of window cleaner and three tire irons.
(https://bmwr65.org/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Flh6.ggpht.com%2F_78IZhoIuYiU%2FTGhyDp2PoYI%2FAAAAAAAAAFs%2FL4Ozv-Kme2M%2Fs800%2FDSC03721.JPG&hash=f89302e2e6f9cd8ec0b4d43dd0d0546f58b2a339)
And my ghetto tire balancing setup. From removing wheel from the bike, greasing splines, removing the tire, new tire on, and pumping up with a bicycle pump... about 40 minutes.
(https://bmwr65.org/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Flh4.ggpht.com%2F_78IZhoIuYiU%2FTGhyEMGjtPI%2FAAAAAAAAAFw%2FHge5LD40mmk%2Fs800%2FDSC03722.JPG&hash=841d190daea09922aa3ad77771672610913324a0)
And now for the front tire. As you've read above, I had a bit more trouble with the front tire. The knobby didn't come off without a struggle but that was mostly because I couldn't get enough leverage with the brake discs in the way. Then, after getting the new tire on, it took me a bit to get the bead to seat, but it eventually was defeated. Balancing... didn't even need it!
(https://bmwr65.org/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Flh6.ggpht.com%2F_78IZhoIuYiU%2FTGhyHCblUuI%2FAAAAAAAAAGM%2FWvUg235L0Ao%2Fs800%2FDSC03729.JPG&hash=75bb233085ef88b3f6edf0981d5fcc843009142b)
(https://bmwr65.org/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Flh3.ggpht.com%2F_78IZhoIuYiU%2FTGhyHtM8hzI%2FAAAAAAAAAGQ%2FnKMmJwUyHxA%2Fs800%2FDSC03730.JPG&hash=7a8d75b4b9226671d5ed311ba53bfc0054763207)
And done... new tires, rear fender and rear tail light! The new front tire is actually wider than the knobby. It BARELY clears the fender brace arms.
(https://bmwr65.org/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Flh3.ggpht.com%2F_78IZhoIuYiU%2FTGhyIAPaBVI%2FAAAAAAAAAGU%2FURn4_11rew8%2Fs800%2FDSC03735.JPG&hash=f8a022eb3bbf7d212b8e1eb19029d9c724e44442)
(https://bmwr65.org/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Flh6.ggpht.com%2F_78IZhoIuYiU%2FTGhyIYX0kaI%2FAAAAAAAAAGY%2FvYvRbTDGMzg%2Fs800%2FDSC03736.JPG&hash=3d03cb064f65bdc61e1008e469a6e02b5b2feb3b)
All in all it was a very long day... took me probably 6 hours but I did take my time and much of it was just fighting the small bolts that held on the fender! The tire changing itself was very easy and took about 45 minutes for the rear tire, and maybe 1.5 hours for the front, just fighting the bead. But that included having to run to the local convenience store to use their compressor as I don't have one at home.
And a little walkaround movie. Sorry it's a little dark... I shot it with my little point-and-shoot digital camera.
[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ovQ1Ypw5aMk[/media]
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Nice Job!
Tire jobs always gets complicated for me, will try next time I'm due for fresh rubber, possibly even try to go tubeless?
It appears your bike is in very good tuning condition, I like how it starts and idles.
As a side note: I've heard from the airhead list not to idle your engine on the sidestand, might ruin your engine.
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I had plenty of 2x4s lying around so I thought I'd try this method of popping the beads off the rims. Worked like a charm!
I've got one of those ghetto bead breakers, too. Just can't seem to easily get it in and out of the tool box. Dig your Woody.
Good job, Graeme. Now, go buy an air compressor.
Monte
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The new front tire is actually wider than the knobby. It BARELY clears the fender brace arms.
My Bridgestone Spitfires that I buy for the front are 100/90, and they seem to fit, fine.
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Well, I managed to find a nice window between the thunderstorms and couldn't resist taking the girl out for a spin to break in those tires.
HOLY COW!
It's like a completely different bike! Nice and confident, no wobbling and tracking with cracks in the road, comfortable, smooth.... just wow. My "I'll take it for a 10-mile ride" ended up being about a 40-mile ride. ;D
I think the reason the front tire barely clears is not the tire, but the fender, as it's not a stock r65 fender. Not sure what bike it's from, but it looks pretty cool. Monte, I guess I technically DO have a compressor as it was my FIL's but it's out at his property. We don't have the room to store it right now but as soon as we sell the Woody, I'll bring it home. I also very rarely let it idle on the side-stand now that I've got the center-stand installed. I just was too lazy to put it up on the center stand for the video.
About the woody: It too was one of my FIL's projects. He purchased it new in the early 70's for $50 and has spent countless hours and $$ restoring it. We actually can't afford to keep it and are trying to find a good, loving owner for her. Here is a recent pic of the 1951 Dodge Woody.... one of only 16 known in the US:
(https://bmwr65.org/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Flh5.ggpht.com%2F_78IZhoIuYiU%2FTEe_AwKuzRI%2FAAAAAAAAAA8%2FX86F4B6hHWU%2Fs800%2FDSC_0002.JPG&hash=aa317defedbbdc616037d5c8fe1dce8e0700f62f)
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The new front tire is actually wider than the knobby. It BARELY clears the fender brace arms.
My Bridgestone Spitfires that I buy for the front are 100/90, and they seem to fit, fine.
Note the non-R65 front fender on Graeme's scoot. Kinda neat looking, I think. Pin striped and all...
Monte
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Man! I got the caffeine flowing this a.m. so it's r-e-a-l-l-y easy for me to visualize myownself in the Dodge Woody with my vintage Airhead trailering along behind. Sweet dreams.
Hey... that thing gotta Hemi? [smiley=thumbsup.gif]
Monte
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Man! I got the caffeine flowing this a.m. so it's r-e-a-l-l-y easy for me to visualize myownself in the Dodge Woody with my vintage Airhead trailering along behind. Sweet dreams.
Hey... that thing gotta Hemi? [smiley=thumbsup.gif]
Monte
Funny you should ask! About two years ago my FIL moved the body of the Woody onto the frame/drivetrain of a late 80's Dodge pickup. So it has a 318ci V8, PS, PB, etc. We still have the original frame with the flathead straight-6 and it will be included with the sale.
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Man! I got the caffeine flowing this a.m. so it's r-e-a-l-l-y easy for me to visualize myownself in the Dodge Woody with my vintage Airhead trailering along behind. Sweet dreams.
Hey... that thing gotta Hemi? [smiley=thumbsup.gif]
Monte
Funny you should ask! About two years ago my FIL moved the body of the Woody onto the frame/drivetrain of a late 80's Dodge pickup. So it has a 318ci V8, PS, PB, etc. We still have the original frame with the flathead straight-6 and it will be included with the sale.
I'm done with this thread cuz it might get real expensive in a hurry. [smiley=undecided.gif] Bye!
Monte
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Has the vehicle had it's annual termite treatment ? [smiley=ROTFLMAO.gif]
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Has the vehicle had it's annual termite treatment ? [smiley=ROTFLMAO.gif]
(https://bmwr65.org/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Finlinethumb24.webshots.com%2F46999%2F2795988580100726353S600x600Q85.jpg&hash=e88ad8dca8eddd37ede4de03dc50ac5de85e1f33)
;D
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Your father-in-law certainly didn't let any grass grow under his feet!
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Graeme -- I'm just glad you got rid of the Kenda's before they put you on the side of the road.
Folgore -- You shouldn't go tubeless unless the rims have a little raised lip on the inside of each bead. R65 rims don't, so you shouldn't go tubeless. People do it but it's not a good idea.