The New And Improved Unofficial R65 Forum V2
Technical Discussion => BMW Technical Q&A, Primarily R65 => Topic started by: Patrick_Krivacka on June 23, 2010, 07:49:08 PM
-
Fire! Had a small fire on the bike today. a section of the wiring harness is completely fried. i've taken a pic if anyone thinks it would be helpful to see it. it's one of the big bundles that have the big white plastic connectors. anyway, I'm ok with replacing the wires, but I want to know what caused it, so I don't, you know, get killed. It was the first time that I road the bike in the rain, if that helps.
-
My first guess would be a wire that had chaffed through the insulation that wasn't protected by a fuse, that would narrow it down to the head light circuit .
By chance have you installed a high wattage head light lamp ?
But this is at best a guess !!!
Good to hear you got out of this in one piece !!
-
That was a close one. So Bob, where should one go to buy good quality automotive wiring? And, where can one find the recommended gauges for our bikes?
-
that's what I thought. I don't know about the high power headlight part. I don't think that's the case, but should I check it, and if so how?
So, just splice in new wires and I'm good? Do you think the rain had anything to do with it?
-
I don't think rain would have caused the fire .
Most auto stores carry US wire sizes, not metric, I'm kinda out of answers for that .
Probably do a search locally on the Internet, see if you come up with a local source for metric wire .
Keep an eye on eBay and the BMW used parts suppliers, these harnesses come up for sale on occasion .
-
I think the wire guages and coloring schemes are industry standard in Germany (Europe?).
I have heard of folks going to junk yards and getting appropriate, custom-color wire from there for their BMW's before.
I've never tried it. Probably any German make would do.
-
I guess I'd need the r65 wiring harness, huh? I'll look into the german make auto wiring.
-
Here ya go, i-man...
For Airhead wiring color codes:
http://www.airheads.org/content/view/314/98/
For metric/american wire size conversions:
http://bmwmotorcycletech.info/wires&codes.htm
Monte
-
thanks Monte, I think that gets me pointed in the right direction. Is there a good way to determine what size the wire I'm replacing is that doesn't involve an expensive measuring device?
-
If you have an original owners manual, it has a wiring diagram, it gives the wire size in metric form, you'll see the wire color, then something like .75 after it, that's the cross sectional area of the wire, .75, would be .75 square millimeters .
-
thanks bob. i'll take a look. Is it true that your ok, as long as you run a thinner wire into a fatter one, but never the other way around?
-
You don't want to go any smaller than original, I don't think a slightly larger size will do any harm, but don't go too large, or your wire bundle will get quite large in diameter, also try to stagger the wire splices so you don't get too many in one area and end up with the same large diameter wire harness .
-
that stagger tip is a good one, and one i might have missed. thanks
-
If you have an original owners manual, it has a wiring diagram, it gives the wire size in metric form, you'll see the wire color, then something like .75 after it, that's the cross sectional area of the wire, .75, would be .75 square millimeters .
Here is a link to the wiring diagram I scanned. It has the wire sizes as mentioned:
http://www.pbase.com/tomfarr/image/102494330/original
-
Iman you can go to marine hardware stores and get good quality marine wiring
-
thanks everyone.
I had a chance to give it a good look in the light of day for the first time and I think I need to consider a whole new harness. it's pretty burned up. how much do y'all think is a good price for used? can you still buy new ones? I bet it would be outrageously expensive.
-
I think the wiring harness is still available from BMW, but I think it's in the 4 figure price range .
-
yeah, that's what I thought. no way that's happening. I'll start tearing into it this weekend. thanks everyone.
-
List price is $1150, Chicago BMW $959 .
Ouch!!!!!!!
-
Am I looking at the wrong items?
Motorworks in England list the front section of the main wiring loom 45 pounds and rear section 75pounds
see http://www.motorworks.co.uk/bmw/products/product.php?f=i&code=BA_15_20_IA_60&shnew=New&model=R45/50/60/65/75/80/90/100%20%282%20valve%29&shnewcode=15&part=Electrics&sub_part=Wiring%20looms&modelcode=20&partcode=IA&source_code=BA_15_20_IA_60&header_text=&header_text_image=0&spPage=2
for photos of the parts, but this is nowhere near the prices you guys are quoting.
The parts listed are R65 pre 1981
John
-
I think you might be on to something Darwin. I don't think I need a whole new harness. I just need to dig into it and see whats what. I have company this weekend, but hopefully I'll be able to steal a couple of hours to at least figure out what I'm up against.
-
Looks ok to me but If you want to contact Motorworks to check they are the correct parts they have a enquiry form you can fill in and they will get back to you. They are very knowledgeable too which comes from stripping old bikes for parts.
http://www.motorworks.co.uk/bmw/contact/contact.php
-
there's a wiring harness on ebay for a '81 r65. will that work on a '80 r65?
-
Looks ok to me but If you want to contact Motorworks to check they are the correct parts they have a enquiry form you can fill in and they will get back to you. They are very knowledgeable too which comes from stripping old bikes for parts.
http://www.motorworks.co.uk/bmw/contact/contact.php
Unfortunately, Motorworks does not ship to the USofA nor Canada. Go figure.
Monte
-
Am I looking at the wrong items?
Motorworks in England list the front section of the main wiring loom 45 pounds and rear section 75pounds
see http://www.motorworks.co.uk/bmw/products/product.php?f=i&code=BA_15_20_IA_60&shnew=New&model=R45/50/60/65/75/80/90/100%20%282%20valve%29&shnewcode=15&part=Electrics&sub_part=Wiring%20looms&modelcode=20&partcode=IA&source_code=BA_15_20_IA_60&header_text=&header_text_image=0&spPage=2
for photos of the parts, but this is nowhere near the prices you guys are quoting.
The parts listed are R65 pre 1981
John
FYI, the description at motorworks says it is *not* for the R65. It appears that the last four numbers on the motorworks site are the last four digits of the number used here as the parts number. See Max BMW parts list. http://www.maxbmwmotorcycles.com/fiche/DiagramsMain.aspx?vid=51897 (electrical systems).
It appears that you can get some discrete subparts of the wiring system, which may or may not help you depending on what burned.
k_enn
-
there's a wiring harness on ebay for a '81 r65. will that work on a '80 r65?
The harness from a '80 and a '81 will have some differences - a lot, really. They redesigned the entire electrical component layout between those two years.
But if the price is right, you could relocate the relays and such to match the harness. We are talking about a franken-bike anyway, right?
-
I think you should do what a PO did on the '76 Goldwing I have ... use common household electronics wiring. Yep. Looked like he just hacked off the cord from his wife's best table lamp, and wired up the ignition. Didn't even bother to solder... just twisted the ends and jammed them up there. :o
(https://bmwr65.org/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Finlinethumb64.webshots.com%2F12479%2F2830666810100726353S500x500Q85.jpg&hash=db3d416ac70f1f0bfae4ed76e8015d27bbce1055)
(https://bmwr65.org/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Finlinethumb57.webshots.com%2F46776%2F2572042100100726353S500x500Q85.jpg&hash=674ab80e4d1155945f5f6afeacb2d25906694afa)
Scary.
-
Graeme, i-man and others considering R65 wire harness work...
Several R65 wire harness sections offered up at the eBay site. Confirm if the bits offered are pre-81 or after; believe it's the electronic bean can that created the wiring design changes. Monte
http://motors.shop.ebay.com:80/Motorcycle-Parts-/10063/i.html?_trksid=m270&_nkw=bmw+R65&_fromfsb=0&_dmpt=Motorcycles_Parts_Accessories&_dct=1
-
There is a r65 wiring harness for sale cheap on ibmwr.org
Look under airhead parts
-
Can't remember what year your bike is, seeing as it's a 'Franken Bike' !!
Just saw this on the Motobins site .
http://www.motobins.co.uk/bmw-parts.php?model=R Series 2 valve Twin
Part number 79828 for the '78-80 R65 .
Part number 79825 for the '81-84 bikes .
Looks like the main wiring harness .
-
I've just skim read these posts so apologies if it'd been said. This poverty rider would shuffle on down to the nearest junk yard and lop off a big hunk of wire from the trunk harness of any large German car he could find. Invest in a quality crimper, skipping the hardware store variety, and a box of assorted spade connectors, shrink tubing, dielectric grease. and a cheapo VOM [Ive got several]. Some quality time spent in the garage should get everything in order. I'm suspecting the source of your malady will be found in the headlight bucket. have the lamp out and give a look!
-
funny you should post that, mrRiden. After having had time to really take it apart and examine the harness, I'm going to do as you suggested, minus the trying to go with wire from a german car. i need to do about 5 or 6 slice's and i should be back in business. None of the wires are larger then 1.5 mm, so I'm just gong to use 14 gauge wire from the auto parts store, since that's larger then any of the slices I need to make. Good idea?
I've tried to take some pics, but none of them came out well enough to post. Basically, it's the wires from ignition/lighting switch, after the white plug. they are completely fried, so there's not much to see.
what i'm most concerned with at this point is feeling confident that it was a couple of frayed wires instead of some sorta' power surge. any feed back on this is appreciated.
-
...None of the wires are larger then 1.5 mm, so I'm just gong to use 14 gauge wire from the auto parts store, since that's larger then any of the slices I need to make. Good idea?
!4 gauge wire is going to "fatten up" your harness and may be a bit more difficult to match up with the BMW connectors that you may reuse. I would suggest 16 gauge as being closer to the metric equivalent of the OEM harness.
Monte
-
thanks Monte. that makes sense. I think I'm going to go the HF and get one of those third hand things.
-
Check the "Tracer Wire" thread. Dinged Wing Bengt and I were just disussin' it. He's a convert.
And a bit way off topic... Man, these visiting grandkids are already wearing me out! My nearly three-year-old SWWBO has one word for her Grandpa... Again! Again! Again! The two energy engines are still asleep; the dab of valium I added to their bedroom humidifier is working!
[smiley=clap.gif]
Monte
-
valium in the humidifier? Why haven't I thought of that!? On second thought, maybe I should keep the valium for myself.
Yes, i got the idea of the third hand from the 'tracer wire' thread.
I hope i can get to it today, and post up a success story in the PM.
-
I forgot to ask-how do you get the little bullet connectors out of the white plastic holder? some of the wires are burnt all the way into the plug, so I need to get them out.
-
You need 'butt' type crimp on connectors .
You need to push on the wire to get the little spring tab on the pin free of the connector shell, then put the connector, or small diameter tubing over the round pin, push on it so it goes over the spring tab and retracts it, then you can remove the pin and wire from the connector .
If you have any flat pins you need to remove, there's a small slot in the connector opening in the cut out for the pin, you need to get a thin piece of metal down that slot to push the spring tab down and out of the way, so you can then pull the terminal end and wire out of the connector .
It's actually a lot easier to due, than to explain it !!!!
-
...You need to push on the wire to get the little spring tab on the pin free of the connector shell, then put the connector, or small diameter tubing over the round pin, push on it so it goes over the spring tab and retracts it, then you can remove the pin and wire from the connector...
Thin wall tubing, brass and/or aluminum, is available in 12-inch lengths at most hobby shops and hardware stores. Just what you need.
If you have any flat pins you need to remove, there's a small slot in the connector opening in the cut out for the pin, you need to get a thin piece of metal down that slot to push the spring tab down and out of the way, so you can then pull the terminal end and wire out of the connector...
I have a few Harbor Freight cheap-o, flat-blade screwdrivers just for this use. A buck or two for a set of drivers advertised as "eye glasses repair" or some such. If needed, dress the flat blade to a thinner section on a whetstone.
Monte
-
I-Man I was just killing some time waiting for the afternoon thunderstorm to clear and found two wiring harnesses on eBay. One is fro a 1985 so I don't know if it will direct replace but if nothing else it is a wealth of relays and color correct wires. I used one from an R80 when I was working on mine.
-
thanks for all the replies on the wiring harness. I decided to just slice in some new bits and take it from there. anyway, I got it all together and hooked up but when I turn the key I get nothing. I don't think I missed anything as far as the harness goes, but it's possible. The battery has a charge. what next?
-
... when I turn the key I get nothing..
:'(
Whatcha mean "nothing"? Starter, lights, dash, head, tail, brake, turn, horn? Nothing?
Checked fuses? Your rolling barbecue could have caused 'em to fry.
Trace continuity on all the wires you replaced?
All ground wires secure?
Any power to other parts of the scooter? Battery ground secured?
Spill it, i-man. We wanna know. :o
Monte
-
yeah, no lights period. no horn. I did check all connections, but I didn't check the fuses. I was (am?) of the impression that the fuses couldn't cause a complete electrical failure? I'll try to go over everything again when i get home from work.
-
If nothing on the bike works, you need to start with the red wire that comes off of the battery it supplies all of the power to the circuits on the bike, it's the small wire, not the cable that goes to the starter .
Start tracing that wire from the battery to where it branches off to the other circuits .
It would be a good idea to at least check the fuses .
-
Yeah, that red wire from the battery's positive post goes to the starter relay, the light relay -shuts off power to the headlight during starter ops- and the ignition/lighting switch.
Don't overlook that right-side, on-off switch which is tied into a... fuse.
Monte
-
thanks y'all. I do some digging around when I get home.
-
ok, this weird. I got home and pulled both fuses out and found them to be intact, so I put them back in. i put the key in and turned it on with the thought that I might try and giggle a few wires and see if anything happens. Instead, when I put the key in and turned it on, all systems were go!? started right up like nothing had ever happened!? can't help but be somewhat happy, but I also don't trust it. Feedback?
the wiring harness has been pretty much unwrapped. does anyone have any thoughts on rewrapping? Just rewrap with electrical tape? other?
-
...when making wiring harnesses, you do NOT use electrical sticky tape, there is a simple plastic wrap that is used, no sticky tape.
...if you look up wire harness makers, they will normally just give you a roll of the stuff...I make wiring harnesses for boats, do it with a board and nails, then wrap in tape and/or conduit....obviously no conduit on the scooter cos of space, but the principles are the same.
-
i-man, am ya still using the "euro-style" ceramic and wire fuses? Monte
-
no, I followed your lead and changed over to the blade type fuses.
-
is there an alternative starter relay we can use on our bikes? I read somewhere of someone using a ford relay on a r80. anything like that work on our r65?
-
It appears that there are substitute sources for starter relays:
http://www.airheads.org/content/view/159/98/
Be careful to compare your old relay to the new -- pay attention to the circuit depiction on the relay cover. The comments to the relay types in the referenced article are not necessarily accurate -- the article says my 1982 should be what they show as style "C", in actuality it is the style "D".
Also, starter relays are generally available through some of the BMW dealers that have an internet sales arm. I just got one from Bob's BMW (in Maryland), and Max's BMW (New Hampshire shop, not New York) had them is stock a couple of weeks ago.
k_enn
-
There's one peculiar aspect for BMW motorcycles, form the '81 model year bikes, there is a diode in the starter relay .
Without this diode installed, you may have a neutral light that comes on every time you pull the clutch lever in .
Just a warning if you go to a non-OEM part .
-
after messing with it today, I'm pretty sure it's the harness and not the relay. I'm biding on one on ebay, so wish me luck (and don't bid against me!)
-
got the new harness. No joy. there are several plugs/wires that don't have mates. Not too surprising considering that we're talking about the frankenbeemer, but I should be getting something, no? Actually the gen light comes on, but that's it. I know the brown and black wirer that connects to the transmission bolt isn't hooked up. and the brown and green (or is it the green and brown) wirer isn't hooked up, but that shouldn't keep me from being able to turn it over, should it? there's a plug with several wires that doesn't have a mate, but according to the WD, thats the hazard warning connector, so that shouldn't matter, right? I just want to be able to turn the thing over and go from there. Can anyone tell me the wires that must be connected to be able to do that?
-
well, since no one replied, I decided to see what I can do (this must be what a baby bird feels like when it's thrown out of the nest!) I hooked up a couple of wires (brown and black, that's a ground that connects to the trans blot (?) by the gear shift. And the green and brown that I'm guessin' is the oil pressure something or another) Anyway, got all dash lights and it cranks!!
that's very encouraging, but it's not over. I still have a few wires with no where to go. If anyone could chew up some food and regurgitate it into my mouth, i'd be grateful. let me know if you need the color of the wires in the photo.
-
Are you able to match up wires n' terminals from the fried loom to the new/old one?
"It cranks" Does it fire/run? It's gotta be a tough nut for you to figure out just what's what on the FrankenBeemer. Just imagine what it must be like for us.
Keep after it, i-man. Wire colors may not match up exactly but a DVOM and a wiring diagram will help. I'd guess that the pictured wires with only one lead and a female spade end may likely be for bulbs that are self-grounding? Or a horn? Or... $0.02.
Press on [smiley=thumbup.gif]
-
ah, a friendly voice! it doesn't run. you remember my coil? (THE COIL!) well it's got a wire that was woven into the old loom that I'm sure wasn't original. I've decided to treat that as a separate thing for the time being, so I had no expectation that it would run.
I know that this is hard for all of you to follow, 'cuz I'm having a hard time trying to figure out what questions to ask, and how to ask them. Anyway, I guess what I'm after is to figure out if those wires go anywhere, and if it even matters. Then we get to look at that coil again (call your friends and family) and we'll see if we can figure out where this one wire ( that I'm sure is important ) goes.
Also, please don't be afraid to ask me what the hell i'm talkin' about. you can even preface it 'hey stupid', or my favorite, 'hey knucklehead.'
-
I-Man, my suggestion is that we need to get Monte headed your way. The guy really needs a vacation and to get out of town. He doesn't eat much and only needs a few bottles of beer to keep him content. His wife has only been retired for a few weeks but I'm sure that he's driving her nuts, so open up your heart, and garage, and get him to make a run to beyootiful N.C. to help you out. You'd be doing him, and her, a huge favor! (I am electrically challenged or I'd be there in a heartbeat.)
-
say, that's a good idea. i bet NC is even kinda' nice compared to Texas this time of year.
-
According to the NWS, my village has received almost three inches of rain in the past ten days. Soggy.
And Mike, I'm really not driving her nuts. Honest. She just sends me out to the shop.
Although I'm not too thrilled about the camp cot she tossed in...
-
I beginning to think it'll take the intervention of a higher power (someone smarter then me) to solve this. I went out this morning and I'm back to zero. No lights no nothin'. The Battery is charged. I'm determined to figure this out. Any help is appreciated.
-
I-Man, without going through this thread, have you been in touch with Rick at Motorrad elektrik http://www.motoelekt.com/? He has a book, now in DVD form on airheads. He's your go to guy. He may not be immediately available though if he's going to the national rally next weekend. Give him a call first thing Monday and see if he can suggest anything. I feel your pain.
-
it is pretty annoying. I felt like I was on the brink last night. Now, .....i really don't want to take it to someone, even if I could find someone to work on such a hack job of a bike. I can't even image how much that would cost.
-
OK, now here's my alternative plan. Load up your bike in your truck, drive to Monte's house and then you can both drive his wife nuts! I'd even bring the Shiner Bock to see that.
[smiley=3stooges.gif]
But seriously, you'll find Rick to be a very helpful guy. He's always taken time to help me sort through issues, and his manual/dvd should be very helpful. You'll probably find it to be something very elementary like a bad connection somewhere, usually an improper ground.
-
ok. went out side and turned the key. nothing. then I notice that the head light was on . the blinkers work. so not nothing. I grabbed one of the relays and really mashed it in. All the dash lights came on. Hit the starter. turned over. green wire with blue tracer doesn't have a mate. hook it up to the coil cuz it was hooked up to the coil on the old wiring harness and the wiring diagram says that it goes to the coil, so what the hell. Hit the starter and it starts and runs like I last ran it yesterday. I'm more confused then happy.
-
Hit the starter and it starts and runs like I last ran it yesterday. I'm more confused then happy.
Bengt Bad Connection Mike is likely close to your problems. You seem to be getting closer and closerer. Keep pitching.
Rick Jones at Motorrad Elektrik http://www.motoelekt.com/index.html offers a BMW electrical self-help text http://www.motoelekt.com/chassis.htm that is loaded with clearly written info.
Or you can order his T-shirt with the BMW wiring diagram printed on it. I get confused wearing it and working on the R65 at the same time... everything is upside down! ::)
Monte
-
after I posted last night, i went out and put my gas tank back on, planing to see if I could take it for a spin. got it all hooked up, but when I turned it on.....no dash lights. No matter how much I mashed the relays, I couldn't duplicate what happened earlier. This morning I took the metal casing off the starter relay and forced the contact together and it cranked, but no spark. does this tell us anything? I'm pretty sure at this point that it's the starter relay. anyone else agree?
also, I still have a lot of loose ends (wires without mates) assuming the bike runs like it did, can I just cap these and forget them?
-
... I still have a lot of loose ends (wires without mates) assuming the bike runs like it did, can I just cap these and forget them?
Probably. I once helped a guy un-wire a little Yamaha enduro bike bought for his daughter. We started up the bike and began unplugging wires, one wire at a time. Mostly lights and stuff on the handlebar clusters. If the engine quit, we'd plug that particular wire back in.
There's a couple go nowhere wires on both my R65s.
Monte
-
go no where wires? do tell.
-
go no where wires? do tell.
As I recall, they look like your plastic capped, single wire, no mates.
-
I think it's over! new starter reply (not needed) new used wiring harness (needed). finally got time to dig into it deeper and discovered the kill switch wires were pretty much fused together. cut, solder reconnect, and I'm back in business! no time for a shakedown ride, but I'm feeling like this is it. started right up, and no amount of giggling of the harness could get it to stop. Boy, i need to ride. i miss it so.
-
How about that! I guess now we all look like experts since each of us have said to you, at one time or another, "It's bound to be something simple." Thanks, buddy, but just how do I find something simple?
Good on you, i-man. Now get busy and mate up all those other loose ends. It's bound to be something simple. ;D
-
If by mate up you mean cover with electrical tape and forget it, then that's already been done! But seriously, that's my plan at this point. what do you (y'all) think of that?
-
Firstly, congratulations on ending a long frustrating search. Have a Shiner on me and then have one on Monte. But is your plan to wrap it up in electrical tape and move on? Uh, no, we won't allow you to do that. Electrical tape won't hold up in any kind of weather and you're just asking for trouble if you leave it like that. Since you're dealing with a Frankenbeemer anyhow, don't hesitate to find a way to waterproof the wiring, using shrink sleeves or maybe even find a switch from another bike that is functional. But really, congratulations!
-
but you think it's ok to just cap them off? I just need to come up with something better then electrical tape?
-
i-man, did you neatly repair the wiring at the kill switch? I'm thinking you did. Bengt Mike may be addressing a concern about proper repair of active electrical circuits rather than those go-nowhere connectors you posted pics of.
BTW... Spoke with Mr Phorqs last evening on the land line. He had just replaced a GFI switch connected to his swimming pool. Hummm. Let's think about this for a moment...
Mike. Electricity. Water. Shiner beer. What could possibly go wrong? [smiley=laugh.gif]
What I have done on several occasions is to use heat shrink tubing over the connector plug or just a bare ended wire. Leave an overhang past the end of whatever it is you want to seal off from the elements.
My hi/lo hot air gun from Ace Hdwr & BMW Sply really cooks so after drawing down the tubing, I apply a lot of heat to the tips of a pair of needle-nosed pliers, reheat the excess shrink tubing, then altogether we squeeze and seal the open end. Done. Trim any excess that annoys your sensibilities.
Monte
-
Mike. Electricity. Water. Shiner beer. What could possibly go wrong?
Absolutely nothing! Everything went just as I planned it, thank you Mr. Farklemeister. And I didn't even have a Shiner until all was said and done.
Now i-man, it appears I may have misunderstood, you have merely capped off the NON live wires? OK, in that case, never mind. [smiley=bmw_smiley.gif]
-
yeah, just capped off the plugs in the photos a couple of pages back.
-
Well, folks, I think our work here is done. Another satisfied customer. As i-man rides off into the sunset, let's all sing a little song... Lead us off, Lucky Lou.
Happy trails to you,
Keep smiling until then.
Happy trails to you,
'til we meet again.
[smiley=clap.gif] [smiley=clap.gif] [smiley=clap.gif] [smiley=clap.gif] [smiley=clap.gif]
-
I'm sorry monte. I wish I didn't have to do this after such a nice send off, but.........the saga continues. tried to take it for a shakedown spin, but made it less then 20 feet before turning around. it stumbles terribly when i let out the clutch and wouldn't go faster then 10 or 5 mph, no matter how much gas I gave it. the spark seems pretty week (I have those plug wires with the see through caps) It starts, idles great. but no joy on take off. as always-help!
-
...I have those plug wires with the see through caps... It starts, idles great. but no joy on take off. as always-help!
I have those plug wires with the see through caps. Say what? Those are Harley parts.
Let's back up a bit. Before the fireworks issue, was the engine running OK? No stutter-stumble?
I'll toss out a couple ideas and others will soon join in, I'm sure.
Is the battery fully charged? Fuel lines clear and float bowls free of water/debris? I'm attempting to recall the ignition coil setup on the F'Beemer... proper function and fit? Spark plugs screwed in snug?
If it's starting and running, I would think the engine performance issue is ignition or fuel related. Start with the battery check n' charge.
It's something simple. Just gotta find it. :)
And Lou, keep your guitar in the case for now...
-
yes, I believe I have a Harley coil as well!
It ran great right before the fireworks display. In fact, it was running great while the firework display was happening! (for a while at least)
would a under charged battery cause it to behave in the manor I described? The reason I ask is I once left the lights on and ran the battery out, got a jump and it ran fine. Isn't the battery very low in that situation? (not challenging you, just trying to learn)
It could be moisture in the gas, as I had the tank off and the carb tubes uncovered (well, covered by the roof overhead, but you know what I mean.) and it has been very rainy lately. do you think that could be it?
-
...would a under charged battery cause it to behave in the manor I described?
Quite possibly. The design of the airhead alternator is such that it does not begin charging the battery until the engine rpms get up to around 4K. Short trips and city driving, you're really running on battery power alone. A very low battery may not supply the voltage needed to fire the plugs much over idle rpm. Plus, you've been using up the battery's stored energy with your "fireworks" repairs and tests.
The reason I ask is I once left the lights on and ran the battery out, got a jump and it ran fine. Isn't the battery very low in that situation?
Yep. I did the same although I used the LeMans run n' bump to get going. Battery was low but had enough to start and get me home to the Tender.
Put Frankie-B on the charger for the evening. Report back after your ride. Fingers crossed...
Monte
-
full charge on battery, same symptoms. Any other ideas? I'll try anything at this point.
-
Checked float bowls for junk? Choke cables correct function? Is the exhaust puking rich smoke? Throttle cable full function yanking the slides up? Have you changed ignition timing?
I still don't like those plug wires... could be iffy.
Come on boys. A little help for our frustrated friend.:D
-
One thing-I changed the plugs to ngk bpr6es and seem to remember that the plugs shouldn't have an r in the title/make/model whatever you call it. true, and is there any chance that this is a problem in the short term?
Another thing, the gen light wants to stay on, meaning it does flicker off, but mostly stay on.
From reading my post i'm sure y'all have figured out that i hardly know what I'm doing. any chance I got some wires in the wrong place when i put the new harness on? Or would it not run at all instead of running poorly?
I hear you on the plug wires and it's something i'd like to address, but does it stand to reason that they were fine 3 or 4 weeks ago and now it's the cause of the motorcycle running so poorly?
I'll pull the float bowls and clean them, but my intuition tells me that this started with the electrical system, and that something is still wrong. not trying to fight it, just throwing that out there.
-
One thing-I changed the plugs to ngk bpr6es and seem to remember that the plugs shouldn't have an r in the title/make/model whatever you call it. true, and is there any chance that this is a problem in the short term?
Well resistor plugs won't help if you already have a weak spark and do those "see through caps" have a spark gap in them for visual effect ? If so they might not be helping either. You do need some resistance in the lead/cap/plug combo. Minimum 1000 ohms for points ignition or 5000 ohms for electronic ignition. Substantially more resistance will weaken the spark which may not matter on a good ignition system but will matter on a marginal one.
-
i guess it couldn't hurt to change caps. can i just go to a auto place and pick them up? or do i need motorcycle ones?
-
i-man, Are you pointed or electronic ignition? I don't recall.
What I'm running on both Hall sensor-equipped R65s:
NGK Resistor (5K Ohm) Spark Plug Cap designed for threaded stud plugs
NGK BP7ES non-resistor Spark Plugs
7mm Plug Wires - Copper core with Black silicone rubber casing
Best bet on buying these bits local would be a nearby Rice Shop.
If you have a points ignition, someone else will need to assist as to proper plug caps, wires, & plugs.
You may be able to check the condition of your HD coils with a DVOM. Somebody?
-
as far as I know I have points. Honestly I haven't really dug into that part of the bike. I guess I need to, huh?
but really, we all know that the caps and plug wires aren't the problem, right? I'm really not trying to be a contrarian, or get out of doing it, those flashing caps are way cheesy, but their new and worked fine up until the incident.
Oh well, the saga continues.
-
Can't tell if your bike has points ignition because of the non standard seat. 78 - 80 bikes had points and 81 - on had electronic ignition.
If you have points ignition in an ideal world you will get a slightly better spark with 1000 ohms plug caps and non resistor plugs. You may not be able to find 1000 ohm caps in which case 5000 ohm caps will be OK just make sure not to use resistor plugs as well and steer clear of carbon ignition leads which add even more resistance. As Monte says you want copper leads.
-
new caps and wires and plugs and the same results. darn.
-
A wild guess here, I wonder if the condenser/capacitor wired to the ignition points got fried with the electrical system meltdown ?
-
for learning purposes, could you say a short something about why you think so? not that I doubt it, just so I know.
How would I test it?
-
To test it, you need to disconnect the wire lead from the points .
Set your multimeter to the ohms scale, connect one lead of the test leads to the wire, the other test lead to the metal case of the condenser, after you have them connected, the resistance should start increasing as the condenser starts charging up .
You didn't have any problems until the meltdown, now you have a weak spark, it's an easy part to get to and check .
I don't think the leads would be damaged, as there is an air gap in the coils between the primary and secondary windings .
You could check the coils for the resistance of the primary and secondary windings, to see if one or both may have gotten damaged electrically .
The condenser is just a metal foil wound up with a thin insulator to create an electrical storage device .
-
thanks bob. I take a look at it and report back.
-
update. I decided to clean my carbs and see what happened. I cleaned them and put them on tonight. i went for a ride. the bogginess and hesitation was still there, but it was better. I returned home and noticed that the spark on one side seemed nonexistant (i did buy the ngk plug caps and put them on, but it actually ran worse, so I put the old caps back on). I decided to give the ngk plug caps another try. One sides plug cap was so hot that I couldn't take it off. the other side was warm, but not nearly as hot as the other side. I went in the house and took a little break. I went back out and changed the warm plug cap to the new ngk, but left the hot side the same. I started it up and noticed a difference. I went for a ride and noticed a huge difference! It pulled better then ever for about a mile. I was so happy. I thought I had it figured out. I came to a stop sign. when I got back under way the old bogginess and hesitation returned. It seemed a little different in that it it wasn't hesitate but more jerky, like it was running out of gas. (I don't think it was, clear fuel lines showed gas and there is plenty in the tank), I got home, waited about half an hour and went out again and had nearly the same experience.
what do y'all think of that?
-
I think you still have issues. Change the HD coils and condenser.
-
yes, I do still have issues, but I'm starting to lean towards thinking it's gas not spark. why do you think it's spark, please?
-
I-Man, it's just my experience that most of the time an infernal combustion engine doesn't run right it's because of the spark. Take a look at the very unscientific poll I started "Breakdown Poll". The majority of breakdowns are ignition related. As we all know it takes, spark, oxygen, and fuel to make fire. Oxygen and fuel are less critical components of the sequence. Spark is much more critical. So, in summation, making sure that one has a coil, condenser, plugs, plug caps and wires, and points that are all of the proper spec, and timing is set properly, then you have minimized the potential for failure. Just my two cents here.
Now this weekend I have to sort out the electrics on my 68 Triumph because it's not even sparking at all. Keep plugging away and you'll get there!
-
It is also still possible that even if you see the resistance rise when testing the condensor with a multimeter, that it isn't good/partially damaged. The condensor in the points system operates with much higher charging currents and voltages than are generated by the multimeter as it takes it measurements. If it has a partial "leak"/internal short it may hold charge partially until higher voltage/current demands cause it to discharge internally, resulting in a weakened/missing spark. But, this is still speculation at this point.
While I think that your problem may still be carb related, it may make sense to do all you can do to eliminate the possibility of it being ignition related, to be certain - we have a decent batting average, but remote diagnosis via internet is not always accurate.
-
I keep swinging back and forth between being sure it's gas and certain it's spark.
I called Bing yesterday and after figuring out what kit I needed I was told that it was going to cost $250! Bosch Blue coils are $90. Rebuilding the carbs and replacing the coil are both on my to do list. Maybe I'll just buy the coils and pray.
Honestly, I think i might take a few days off from thinking about it. I'm becoming obsessed and not thinking straight.
-
Condensers are notoriously difficult to test with a multimeter unless you have experience of how it should look or a known good one to compare with and even then as nhmaf says your testing it a a few volts while in operation the back emf from the coil can be a couple of hundred volts. I have an old automotive condenser of the same value ( 0.2 micro farads ) that I use for comparison. Our condensers have a specialised terminal arrangement but if you want to bodge the connections for test purposes any automotive condenser of similar value would work just fine.
Duane Ausherman's web site has a very good write up on points ignition where he talks about how much arcing you should be seeing at the points which is another way of knowing you have a good condenser . http://w6rec.com/duane/bmw/points/index.htm
-
As far as the condenser goes- it's what, about $11/$15 bucks? I think I'll just buy a new one and put it on for that price.
But the condenser thing brings up an interesting point. I don't really trust the results when I do the work/tests. Esp. on the electrical stuff. I've done a lot of different mechanical/electrical things on many different motorcycles, but even when it's successful, I feel more lucky then skilled.
I've found a local independent Bmw mechanic to examine the frankenbeemer and at least tell me what's wrong. i sent him a link to the thread on this subject that I started over at ADVriders (this thread has gotten a little long) and he read it over and wasn't completely scared off, so that's an option.