The New And Improved Unofficial R65 Forum V2
Technical Discussion => BMW Technical Q&A, Primarily R65 => Topic started by: Johnster on June 24, 2010, 06:41:30 AM
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Hello all,
sorry to throw out my first post as a question, but the summer is here and its time to ride.
The bike in question is a 1979 R65, last ran in 2001 or 2002 - its been sitting ever since then in a shed. Aesthetically it isnt bad (I'll want one of those tank covers sooner or later...) but I am worried about the inside of the gas tank.
It was stored full of fuel, with stabilizer added, but I haven't been in there yet to see what it looks like.
I also own a '97 GSXF/Katana that has a horrible-looking gas tank (horrible on the inside)- and it clogged all the carbs up on me. So I am looking at some of those 'gas tank clean and re-coat' kits - like Kreem or POR-15 (for both bikes)
POR-15 has a better name going in, but not necessarily in the gas tank department.
Does anyone have experience with either of those products ? any reason they would not work on an R65 ? (is it a steel tank ? are gold R65 tanks cheap when found new ?(lol)
Also on the list is front brake Master cylinder, fork seals and the question - do I open up the crankcase to look for problems are lube the splines and ride? - I'll search up these as time permits.
Any POR-15 gas tank experience here ?
-John
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welcome.
I've used por 15. It wasn't hard to use, but you do have to take your time and follow the directions to the letter. I didn't use it on my r65, but on a old honda dream that I sold. I see the guy fairly often, and the por 15 has held up well; although it's only been about a year. I've heard mostly bad things about kreem.
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Also on the list is front brake Master cylinder, fork seals and the question - do I open up the crankcase to look for problems are lube the splines and ride? - I'll search up these as time permits.
Any POR-15 gas tank experience here ?
-John
Spline check, clean and lube would be an excellent idea for both the transmission and final drive. I sure would not crack the crankcase at this time. Change all lube fluids and the oil filter. Likely will need new tires and tubes, if you're running them. There are several other items to check and/or maintain but I'll let some others join in with their tips.
The POR-15 works only if you follow all the directions. Who was in among us that used the molasses rust-buster treatment? Post up as that's a great idea especially since John will have some time while prepping for first engine start. 8-)
Welcome to the asylum, John. If you've been lurkin' for awhile, you know this is the place to be for all things R65.
Post up some photos. We l-o-v-e photos. [smiley=thumbup.gif]
Monte
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I tried the molasses mixture, it worked, but I think a better alternative is to just use the active ingredient of that concoction, acetic acid, which is found in vinegar, might not be as strong of an acid content, but I'm sure in a week or two, it will remove the rust and the old red liner in the tank .
I used the POR 15 in my LS fuel tank, having to do it again, I would just use vinegar in the tank for a week or two, then get the POR 15 sealant in an 8 ounce can, about half the cost of the POR 15 motorcycle kit .
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electrolysis really works ask well. I've used vinegar and that works, but electrolysis has a cool factor that nothing else can touch.
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Explain the electrical process you used, I have a Moto Guzzi tank that is rusted up and needs work, always looking for an easier alternative .
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there's a lot of good info on the web about it (with pictures and everything!) but basically you mix water and WASHING soda (sodium carbonate) I forget the ratio, fill your tank with it. find or make a bare spot on your tank for the neg. cable of a battery charger (12 volt) and hook your pos. cable to a piece of wire/metal rod that you put in your tank (without letting it touch the sides or bottom of tank) and turn it on. give it some time, a couple of hours, then pull the wire/metal rod out and be amazed at the rust that's coating it.
CAUTION: you will be making hydrogen gas, so make sure you have good air flow and no open flames.
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Hi Johnster. First off be aware that your '79 is different in many ways than later models of R65's. I have a '79 and one of the first things I did was take the front ATE calipers apart (I have 2 on my bike). I found corrosion on the pistons. At that time they looked like they would still be operable so I cleaned them up and re-installed them. Eventually I expect to have to replace the pistons (and maybe the calipers). I would anticipate that yours may be corroded also if the bike has been sitting for awhile with old brake fluid in it. Needless to say you should also change the brake fluid.
Definitely change all the lubricants, grease the splines with moly grease (Honda sells Moly 60). Look around the bike, you will find some grease nipples...grease them. Also grease your swing arm bearings...there is a fitting that fits on the end of a grease gun that will allow you to do this.
Good luck.
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there's a lot of good info on the web about it (with pictures and everything!) but basically you mix water and WASHING soda (sodium carbonate) I forget the ratio, fill your tank with it. find or make a bare spot on your tank for the neg. cable of a battery charger (12 volt) and hook your pos. cable to a piece of wire/metal rod that you put in your tank (without letting it touch the sides or bottom of tank) and turn it on. give it some time, a couple of hours, then pull the wire/metal rod out and be amazed at the rust that's coating it.
CAUTION: you will be making hydrogen gas, so make sure you have good air flow and no open flames.
Thanks for the info .
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there's a lot of good info on the web about it (with pictures and everything!) but basically you mix water and WASHING soda (sodium carbonate) I forget the ratio, fill your tank with it. find or make a bare spot on your tank for the neg. cable of a battery charger (12 volt) and hook your pos. cable to a piece of wire/metal rod that you put in your tank (without letting it touch the sides or bottom of tank) and turn it on. give it some time, a couple of hours, then pull the wire/metal rod out and be amazed at the rust that's coating it.
CAUTION: you will be making hydrogen gas, so make sure you have good air flow and no open flames.
The required amount of baking soda, is .5 cup to 5 gallons (19 l.) of water .
The electrical method will also remove any liner that is left in the tank .
I wonder if you used a copper anode hanging down into the tank, if it would deposit any meaningful amount of copper on the inside of the fuel tank metal surface ?
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Oh boy - grease fittings, I'm not old enough for that =)
I didnt want to break the crankcase open- so I appreciate the recommendation =)
motor oil, trans fluid, brake fluid, fork oil - yes it will need these...right now the front forks squeak when you jounce them...
I'm sure that the rear shocks will need rebuilt/replaced - anyone other Ohlins for that ?
Brakes - I've been all the way through the dual disks on my Katana - so other than sourcing an new master cylinder ($$$) I can handle that.
My father bought the bike a few years after my mother left him. He'd ridden it a few times but never seemed to enjoy riding like I did (I have a SS1000 under my belt). Could be that his brother was in too many MC's- he gave up his harleys and now rides an R100RT =) (but still rides from bar to bar with his buddies :(
I'd like to give the bike back to my father in good shape, maybe we'll ride together someday (he lives in SE PA)
Spline check and lube - Do I need to plan on removing the trans all the way - or do you think I can get it done with toothbrushes and Popsicle sticks ?
Its gonna be interesting- thanks for the kind words.
-John
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there's a lot of good info on the web about it (with pictures and everything!) but basically you mix water and WASHING soda (sodium carbonate) I forget the ratio, fill your tank with it. find or make a bare spot on your tank for the neg. cable of a battery charger (12 volt) and hook your pos. cable to a piece of wire/metal rod that you put in your tank (without letting it touch the sides or bottom of tank) and turn it on. give it some time, a couple of hours, then pull the wire/metal rod out and be amazed at the rust that's coating it.
CAUTION: you will be making hydrogen gas, so make sure you have good air flow and no open flames.
The required amount of baking soda, is .5 cup to 5 gallons (19 l.) of water .
So you just put this solution in, electrify it and it sucks the rust off ?
-John
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What you need to do, is to hang a 'sacrificial' anode into the filler hole, I'd say a drilled rubber stopper would work to keep the anode from touching any other metal surface on the tank .
I think there will be a transfer of material , the rust from the tank will be deposited on the anode hanging inthe tank, metal from the anode will be deposited on the surface of the tank, at least that's how I think it works !!!!
Fill the tank with the baking soda/water solution, place the positive clamp from the battery charger/ power supply to the anode hanging in the tank, then place the negative clamp from the battery charger/ power supply to a bare metal surface on the tank to complete the circuit .
The few articles that I found online do state the caution, that hydrogen gas will be venting from the tank, so you need to provide a path for this gas to escape, remember that hydrogen is quite flammable/explosive ( remember the Hindenburg zeppelin ?) so keep any potential ignition source away from this experiment !!!!!
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OH THE HUMANITY! (reporter covering the Hindenburg explosion. good times.)
I used a large mouth funnel in the fill hole and rubber bits on the tip of the anode. it really is neat the amount of stuff it takes off.
my son and I were digging in the backyard (making a garden bed) when we came across what must have been an old junk pile. lots of old rusty house hold stuff, scissors, safety razor, silverware, ect. 2 hours in the electrolysist bath and they look like something you'd see in a history museum 3,000 years from now. very cool. but then I'm a nerd.
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oh yeah, from what i've read, WASHING soda, not BAKING soda. both will work, but sodium carbonate will work better then sodium bi-carbonate. again, from what I've read. I'm not a chemist.
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I was wondering if washing soda and baking soda were one in the same !!
Thanks for clearing that up .
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motor oil, trans fluid, brake fluid, fork oil - yes it will need these...right now the front forks squeak when you jounce them...
Spline check and lube - Do I need to plan on removing the trans all the way - or do you think I can get it done with toothbrushes and Popsicle sticks ?
-John
Gear oil also goes in the final drive reservoir and the driveshaft. Add a shop manual, Clymer, Haynes or both, to your grocery list.
Two schools of thought on the tranny spline lube, for sure, John. I might want to slide it back first just to see what the splines look like. If they show any rusty areas or absence of lube... yank the trans and save yourself some money and aggravation further down the road.
Monte
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Hi!
I think Por-15 is a extreme measure, since you say that your problem might be only dirt and deposits inside the tank, maybe you'll be ok with several Vinegar + Water cleaning sessions.
I had to use POR-15 on my tank recently, but I had a hole on it (rust from inside).
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Again - thanks for the responses. (I'm posting from work, so I'm trying not to check up here too often....)
A few curiosities.
1) I think I'll try the POR on the Katana fuel tank first...it really IS that bad. we'll see how that works - the soda electrolysis sounds really interesting (I AM an electrical engineer by title...)
2) You guys have pretty much stoof by the Clymer manual (which came with the bike). And while its getting annoying finding out which diagrams are for "my" R65 in every other vehicle I've owned, the owner consensus was "skip the haynes/clymer, and just get the Factory manual" - it has more and better info disproportionate to the cost increase.
...or in this case, the Oak tech articles ?
I've done a lot of reading through bmwmotorcycle.info(? snowbird's site) and its good...but not asy R65 relevant as I'd like.
Is the Clymer a good (or good enough) manual for what I'm looking at doing ? (fluids, forks (type II - right ? =) basic carb/tuning work ?
Thanks guys. Sorry about no pics...If I get some "before" shots I'll throw them up.
-John
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John,
I've got both the Clymer and Haynes manuals. I also download and print many of the Snowbum tech articles and keep them in a binder. Do the same thing with a lot of the Airheads Beemer Club tech articles. Sorta building by own custom shop manual.
The BMW "factory" manual is another good resource among many. Be prepared to read that you must use BMW Special Tool #0000-Unobtanium-$$$ to remove the rear wheel bearings or other such nonsense.
I believe that each resource has something to offer that will help me keep my BMWs on the road as a reasonable, DIY, sport/hobby.
Monte
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Okay, so I did the POR-15 on the Katana gas tank yesterday. long job and I'm not 100% sure I did it right. I'll ask the internet gods to forgive me for not taking pictures, but I'll run through what I did. My bike is a 1997 Suzuki Katana (GSXF) so it has 3 holes in the tank - filler on top, an oval for the petcock and a 1" round hole for the fuel gauge sender. YMMV. I did this all my myself with no extra hands required.
Prep
a) put some electrical tape on the front, back and side edges of the gas tank, and/or have a blanket or pad on the ground nearby so you can, at any time during the process, set the tank on the ground and do work, get a frosty beverage, or let it on its end to 'soak'. any kind of tape will do (electrical tape might leave goo..). If your tank every leaks 'process chemical' during this evolution, it will get on your pad/blanket/garage floor so keep that in mind.
b) this process took me 4 hours from start to finish (if I would have done it in one sitting). I did a LOT of rinsing - more than they mentioned. I also had a hair dryer handy (looks like my ex-girlfriend was good for something =) and all the necessary tools to take the gas cap on and off (my gas tank has the cap attached to a bolted flange.
c) stuff to pre-stage:
hair dryer (or fan for drying out the tank)
roll of paper towels - POR-15 says that their chemicals will ruin your paint - it didnt happen to me but I wiped up spills quickly.
box of nitrile gloves
duct tape
tools to install/remove gas cap or various gas tank flanges if you have any
flashlight/drop light
pad/blanket to set the tank down on
a few wood blocks/large books to prop up the tank in various ways during the 'soak and rotate' steps
garden hose with a local shut-off (lotsa flushing water)
Oil catch-pan (normally used for changing your oil)
wear old clothing - you might get this stuff on you if it leaks out of your tank unexpectedly.
(contd)
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c) doing this during the daylight is nice because it makes it easier to see the inside of the tank. I never felt close to being 'overtaken by fumes', but I'm not sure I'd want my 4 year old around any of it either.
d) Try to have a good idea if your gas cap is leak proof or not (mine drips through slowly) - you'll want to seal it up well if it isnt, but you'll want it open it up between washes/flushes, so don't close it permanently.
e) POR-15 says to use duct tape - and that worked for my petcock hole, but not for the fuel sender hole - I had to augment the duct tape with the factory bolted flange/cover
f) POR-15 says to let the tank sit vented for 4 days after application before you put gasoline in it. I'd give them the benefit of the doubt on this one too =)
g) no big spots in my driveway from spills/rinsing, so this stuff is probably suburbs safe =)
more thoughts in order:
1) the instructions said to flush the gas tank with clean water first - mine was pretty dry and there were rust flakes that came out when flushed with water. That being said, I flushed it more than 4 times (with a water hose, draining to my driveway) and I'm not sure I got all the flakes out....I had to apply some old lab-tech wisdom here - if you want to remove 'suspended solids' from a tank/bottle, you need to pour slowly, out the largest hole. the flakes will usually hang on the surface of the liquid and if you just let the water splash out, the flakes will redeposit themselves on the sides of the tank. so always try to pour slowly/carefully.
2) then the instructions had you mix ther marine clean with a quart of water and slosh that in the tank for 20 minutes.
my duct tape over the fuel level sender hole didnt remain leak proof during this step - I wiped the spills up quickly and was safe. next few steps I used the factory flange in addition to duct tape.
(contd)
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2a) that sloshing made a lot of foam
2b) 20 minutes is a long time to slosh something as large as a fuel tank with a gallon of liquid in it.
3) flush the marine clean out of the tank with lots of water - again, the garden hose was nice. If you dont have a garden hose, plan on having at least 2 or 3 tankfuls of water available.
4) follow the directions for thier acid-prep step (this was blue liquid from POR-15). This is a 'soak and rotate' step - another 20 minutes- ie, you want the acid-prep blue stuff to hit every surface in the tank.
5) drain out the acid and dry the tank. POR makes it clear that the tank needs to be fully dry. I had mine dry in the hot sun with a hair dryer blowing into the tank for about 15 minutes. I ended up letting it air dry for another 3 hours (had to take the kids to practice =) just to be sure.
6) pour in the tank sealant and 'soak and rotate'.
6a) POR says to mix the goop to an even consistency. I shook the crap out of it and it will wasnt consistent- but it was too late at that point (I was already pouring it in)
6b) POR says to drain the unused stuff back into its oringinal (1 pint) container. yeah- right - It went into my oil pan - much easier than draining a moto-gas tank into a 1 pint can.
6c) this is stuff is about as viscous as 100w oil- ie- it flows slowly. so slowly that you really do need to soak and rotate for 20 minutes, and...
6d) it takes a long to to drain the excess out of the tank that POR tells you to do. This is where you set your tank on top of the oil catch-pan and slowly tilt it to drain stuff out. with different fuel tank geometry, this would be easier to do.
6e) when rotating the gas tank- I found it easy to lie on my back and hold the tank above me - as opposed to cantilevering the tank in front of me for 20 minutes. feel free to use those blocks/pads to prop up the tank.
6f) don't forget your nitrile gloves during the last step - my fingers are still a little silvery from the sealant =)
(contd)
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7) Wait 4 days - Time will tell if the carbs don't get clogged up (again) after this kinda work.
Thats all - hope this benefits someone. The R65 is next if it looks like it needs it. at 4h spent, that electrode idea looks like its worth the effort.
Peace -John
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I used POR 15 on my LS tank, the sliver sealant was a thin as water and mixed up quite quickly .
I drained the excess sealant out of the tank, put it back into it's original container, still have about half a container left, enough to do the Motto Guzzi tank that needs some attention .
I'm wondering if you got an old kit .
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I might have half a container left - but i put it in the catch-can because it was easier. if I decide to try the POR15 kit again, I'll buy a whole new kit (with the solvents and everything).
I am slightly concerned becuase the tank-sealant was not an even color.- it was a streaky grey/silver..the instructions led me to belive that it would be even after 'mixing'. I shook the can for more than 5 minutes and as it turned out, i couldnt have mixed it if I wanted to - the top of the can didnt come off (I pried it with a screwdriver multiple times and it just got taller I even tried grabbing the appropriate lip with pliers and pulling upward - nothing
I ended up poking holes in the side of the can and pouring it that way.
-John
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I am slightly concerned becuase the tank-sealant was not an even color.- it was a streaky grey/silver..
Mine was also with a not very uniform color, I hope that doesn't affect the final result...
But my main concert is if there is any rest of rust on the part I could not see inside the tank. Will it continue to rust after applying the tank sealant? Hopefully rust was all gone with the rust remover, but.... :-/
Sergio