The New And Improved Unofficial R65 Forum V2
Technical Discussion => BMW Technical Q&A, Primarily R65 => Topic started by: Red_Hen on June 16, 2010, 04:43:27 PM
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Hi Gang
I'm thinking my R65LS is Haunted. My BMW buddy, a retired engineer and I spent several hours today trying to troubleshoot. All we get is a "click" from the headlight relay (at least that's what I think it is). No lights, no instrument lights, no horn, no starter. Just a click when we turn the switch. That's it.
The Clymer book has a wiring diagram but we're wondering if any of you have one that might show more detail? I've attached a picture of the different relays & boxes that are electrical. If you can help me identify what does what, that should be helpful.
I'm open to suggestions :)
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Check the pins in the cable connectors clean them all that cured my irratic indecators.
Lou
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I remember that you had issues with the wires at the ignition switch, did you get that straightened out ?
Looking at the wiring diagram from my '84 LS, I'm going to have to say that all of the circuits you have problems with, are associated with the ignition switch .
Do you have easy access to the ignition switch, or is the fairing back on ?
One quick check for the ignition switch, is to take all of the wires off of the switch, and hold them together so they have electrical contact, but there is a 'hot' wire there (has power all of the time regardless of the ignition switch position), it's the red one, so you may want to disconnect the negative lead from the battery, tape the wires together, then put the battery cable back on and see if the problem goes away .
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This pic has been posted several times before by others, but I had problems finding the threads, so here goes:
(https://bmwr65.org/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi159.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Ft138%2Fnhmaf%2Felectricalunits.jpg&hash=d61baf267a390a701ee4b30d877761ba0d94e699)
There is also a headlight relay as one of the relays on that rack - I can't recall if it is usually the inside or outside one, but given the state of your bike, I wouldn't count on it being in a specific location.
Attached is a color image wiring diagram from a Haynes manual that may help. Both the Clymer manual and the Haynes manual have errors/omissions, but perhaps between the two you can figure out your relays and wires.
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I have a picture of a R65 that was shared by this group- maybe Mike Valenti - maybe from grumpy guy or ???
Anyway, if you look back at the picture I posted on first post today (scroll up) there is another electrical box on the picture I have that is not on my bike. It is in the open space behind the tandem relays and in front of the tourquoise blue electrical box (may be for aftermarket hazard flashers).
I just returned from garage and used contact cleaner and high pressure air hose to clean connectors. Still no progress.
Bob, are you saying I can hold all the wires together and maybe make a connection?
I know there is a solution BUT and this is a puzzle - hopefully - with your help, I'll get lights camera action!
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Yes, the switch connects all of these wires inside the switch through metal contacts, so you are doing the same thing, by touching all of the wires together without involving the switch itself .
I had a switch go bad on me, after removing the switch, you could hear the metal contacts rattling around inside the switch, when you shook it .
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Ken - your pic looks like the others - there should be a starter relay, a headlight relay, a flasher relay under there to the "left" of the metal gray box with red tape, which is the voltage regulator. Some bikes may have a horn relay also installed (particularly if your bike has dual horns or horns other than the simple, single round beep-beep horn that came standard. There is also the possibility of a larger box that looks sorta like a relay but which is a buzzer/turn signal reminder.
USe the colors of the wires that go to the relay connections to help you determine which is what. Also, use the colored wiring schematic included above to see what wires in the ignition/light switch get connected together based on the position of the key in the switch - it's all there for example, in "park" position the red and the gray wires are connected in the switch, got it?
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I think so - another suggestion I received from MOA forum is that starter relay may be malfunctioning - not sure how to trace it but will play with it.
I pulled off ground cluster of wires, used sandpaper to sand to ensure a good connection; have not checked handlebar shutoff (but even if it wasn't working, headlight should come on), red starter wire seems okay, MUST BE THE STARTER RELAY
Another suggestion: "At this point, I'd start with the simple: disconnect the ground to the battery, locate the starter relay, carefully pry it out of its base with a flat screwdriver, and reinsert it. Do this two or three times. Re-connect battery and test the starter. If all is well, disconnect battery, unplug the starter relay (again) and give both male and female connections a good cleaning. Corrosion on the starter relay. End."
Here's a pic of 78-80
http://www.pbase.com/tomfarr/image/124474060/large
And here's 81-84
http://www.pbase.com/tomfarr/image/9...1/original.jpg
Another comment: "From your description, it sounds like it's the starter relay. Pull it and check the terminal numbering for relay "D" here:"
http://www.airheads.org/index.php?op...show=1&start=2
Another suggestion: check the bottom of the all the relays to see if one of the wires has wiggled out. (DID THIS)
Also check the main ground wire that attaches to the frame. (DID THIS)
Turn the switch and get nothing...headlight is not on a fuse. turn signals, horn, stoplight are all on fuses. (NO HEADLIGHT)
When ALL of them are out, that means either ignition switch, right side handlebar cluster...or most likely a bad ground. Also check all the connections under the tank too.(RECHECKED)
Check the battery first but even with a low charge battery, you should be able to get a headlight. (BATTERY PUTTING OUT 13.5V)
Will continue to dig
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Okay - I removed all (3) relays and sanded the contact poles and there was a lot of corrosion. I removed cap off of starter relay and everything inside looks brand new - no corrosion - same for others - headlight & turn signal.
Put them back and still only getting click from the turn signal relay.
Removed solenoid & starter wires off starter and used Dremel wire wheel to clean up connection.
Next, removed fuse harness on frame spine and did same process on the fuse contact poles. With power, put my voltmeter and set it to "beep" to see if the circuit is complete. On the gray wires, I got a beep. On the side with the green wires, no beep. Checked my battery and voltage is down to 6.5 volts so decided to put back on the charger and try again tomorrow.
Will re-charge my batteries too!
I haven't gotten into the handlebar shutoff switch yet - is there anyway to bypass this circuit - I don't think simply unplugging it will do it.
If there's anything else to try, I'm open to suggestions. Maybe a new wiring harness? It's gotta be something simple. I'm cleaning all the electrical contacts during this restoration process.
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If you follow the wire bundle from the kill switch and start switch, there should be a connector I'm guessing around where all of the wire bundles come form the other handle bar .
You're looking for a connector with green wire with a blue spiral band, a green wire, a blue wire with a yellow spiral band, there are multiple wires of the same color coming out of both sides of the connector .
You can place a jumper wire across the green/blue wire to the green wire, that will complete the circuit for the kill switch, do this on the 'bike' side of the connector, not the handle bar side .
If you place a jumper wire across the green/blue wire and the blue/yellow wire, you will be bypassing the starter switch, so as soon as you touch the wires, the starter may rotate, don't be surprised if you get some sparking, nothing to be concerned about, as long as you don't have an explosive atmosphere around you, it's only 12 volts DC, it won't harm you .
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I'm either getting close or running out of bullets.
This morning, I jumped all the wires that go on the ignition switch and still just a "click" from the headlight relay.
I removed the handlebar housing and the only suspect I see is a bunch of dust balls on the turn signal switch. Will blow out with compressed air later today and spray some contact cleaner. Still, don't think that's the culprit.
It's gotta be something real simple.
I'll let you know when I get to the bottom of this.
Could it be a diode board issue? From what I've read I don't think that would prevent circuits from powering up before starting bike.
I also need to confirm bike is in neutral, although we have the clutch bungeed in the open position.
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Ken,
Have you tried what Bob proposed? Is your starter working? Tried jumping directly to the solenoid/starter? Have you tried tracing things with a test light? I hate electrical problems, and I suck at diagnosing them.
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Hi Mike,
Not yet - If it were a test, I'd get a D or D- but I'm trying to learn!
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Have you had the top cover on the engine off yet .
There's an electrical connection on the starter, the positive cable from the battery, goes to the starter, the output lead from the alternator also goes to this same threaded stud on the starter .
If there is corrosion on this connection, you're entire electrical system may not work, or not work very well .
Just a wild guess, it's hidden and forgotten about .
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Ken,
There's also a 2 or 3 prong connector from the engine cover (I think), if that connection is not working - nothing else will.
Help me out here Bob :-[
http://s428.photobucket.com/albums/qq8/gruntyman66/81%20R650%20Restoration/Engine%20-%20Case%20Clean%20and%20Paint/?action=view¤t=81R65RestorationTimingCoverPaint013.jpg#!oZZ23QQcurrentZZhttp%3A%2F%2Fs428.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fqq8%2Fgruntyman66%2F81%2520R650%2520Restoration%2FEngine%2520-%2520Case%2520Clean%2520and%2520Paint%2F%3Faction%3Dview%26current%3D81R65RestorationTimingCoverPaint017.jpg%26
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Mike, I'm not real sure, I know there are two connectors for the wires coming out of the top of the engine, one is for the ignition 'beancan' should have three wires, and the other is for wire(s) for the alternator voltage control, the light blue wire that is visible .
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I just need to get into my "zone" to figure this out. Maybe watch the old Karate Kid a few times.
Will kee you posted and THANKS for being willing to help!
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Ken,
Take my recommendations with a grain of salt, I suck at this electrical stuff - an Italian trying to solve German electronics = another war lost.
Do you have a clutch switch on your bike? I believe there's a connection from the clutch switch at the bar that goes directly to your starter relay, maybe not applicable on your bike. I'm going to gracefully bow out while I still have a shred of dignity.
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If you think it is a starter or starter relay issue, check out the thread on Starter Troubleshooting. (Sorry, I don't know how to link to it). The thread began on 4/26/10 and the last post in that thread was on 5/1/10. The thread contained some great advice on how to check out the starter relay. You should be able to easily determine from that thread if it is the relay, the starter, or something else.
PS, just because a relay or connection looks good does not mean that it is good. My problem at the starter relay has resurfaced. The relay looks fine, and the connectors have been cleaned and look good. Upon further testing, I have cause to question the relay (it recently took several applications of current directly to the appropriate connection points with jumpre wires before the relay closed the contact).
k_enn
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Okay - spent better part of the afternoon removing contacts, cleaning, reattaching - diode board, alternator connectors . . . tried Bob Roller's suggestion to bypass the kill switch - NO LUCK
Now, what if the ground wire I've been attaching to the negative post isn't THE ground wire? Although it is black, I've just looked under the black protective sheath and see it's red - dmaybe this is the solenoid wire that goes to the positive instead of negative pole? No, that doesn't sound right.
I'm pretty much out of ideas short of replacing the wiring harness - I've really gone through it - BUT only to the best of my skill set.
Attached pictures: 1st pic is the heavy wire I've got attached to the positive terminal on battery.
2nd pic shows a black sheath over a red wire - that's on the negative terminal. I've also got a black wire attached to the engine connected to the negative terminal.
Wouldn't it be simple if the terminals were reversed? - way too simple.
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Just so we don't miss something simple, the negative cable from the negative post of the battery is bolted to the transmission case at the speedometer drive area .
There is another wire, that should be on the positive post of the battery besides the large diameter cable, that wire feeds electrical power to all of the electrical systems on the bike .
I think you have it on the wrong battery terminal .
Two wires on the positive post, one on the negative post .
I think you've gotten to the problem here !!!!!
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I think so!
will give it a go & let you know
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Okay - problem partially solved.
Had the second hot wire on the negative side of the battery. Now have electricity. I can't friggin believe it. I'm so happy. Horn works, light works, dash lights work, turn signal works!!!
Must be in gear because starter switch doesn't turn over - will try it on a charger. Must be in gear.
I AM SOOOOOOOO Excited!!!!!
Thanks!
Now on to the next process of getting bike started!!!!
Thanks Thanks Thanks
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GREAT !!!!!
Time for a cold one !!!!
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I understand where the ground wire connects (on the bolt that holds the speedo cable). What gauge wire should I use? My bike didn't have a ground wire when I acquired her.
Now that I got the electrics to work - last night when I pressed the starter button, all I hear is a click - so I put the trickle charger on last night - horns, t/s, brake lights work. If I want to jump the starter with a screwdriver, which terminals to I touch the screwdriver on?
Bright lights work but low beam won't stay on.
At this point, I'll have to play with connectors attaching to my new ignition switch- when from off to the first click, both instrument red lights come on - thinking that should be the parking light only on the tail lamp. Will have to play around.
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If you don't have a heavy gauge ground wire connected from the battery to the transmission, the starter will not work .
The starter is grounded to the engine case through the metal case of the starter .
If you don't have a complete circuit, the starter won't have any electrical flow .
Just taking a look at some wire samples here at work my guess is around AWG 4 or 5 gauge cable, AWG stands for American Wire Gauge, I think it's based on drill bit diameter size, but not real sure .
Someone here posted that they went to a local auto parts store, and found pre-made cables that worked fine on their bike .
If you happen to be around one in your daily travels stop in and see what they have .
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Thanks Bob - where do you suggest I attach the ground wire to on the bike?
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The ground cable is secured by the bolt that holds the speedometer drive cable to the transmission .
The bolt needs to be a hollow, or drilled bolt, it is the atmospheric vent for the transmission as well .
Of course a BMW only part !
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Of course!
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Someone here posted that they went to a local auto parts store, and found pre-made cables that worked fine on their bike .
Most FLAPS have them in pre-made lengths. Or NAPA will make up a to-your-specs length battery ground cable, in black, for a very nominal cost. That's where I got mine for the '81.
For the '83, I made up my own using a DIY swaging tool and terminals n' cable from Ace Hardware and BMW Supply. [smiley=thumbup.gif]
P.S. And don't feel too bad, Ken. You're not the first to mis-wire something.
I had to drive to Austin, Texas only to discover that both my rocket scientist sons could not figure out why the riding mower would, as they said, "crank" but not fire. Those boys! They had installed a new battery but crossed wired the cables. The starter was running backwards and would not engage the flywheel gears. D'oh! I'm surprised it had not fried something. But it fired up and ran for years.
Monte
(https://bmwr65.org/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi196.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Faa1%2Fmontmil%2FBMW%2520R65%2FBattcable.jpg&hash=8e51a9a27e06c3cf8d51289ced3e2aa48f20e5b0)
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Thanks, Monte,
Since I needed a new throttle grip, cam and top cover for grip, I ordered the negative ground and atmospheric bolt where it attaches behind transmission from Motobins - hope to have parts by next week.
Felt embarrassed when I was informed by Bob that there are 2 positive wires that go to the positive terminal. The silver lining is I got intimate with EVERY electrical connector on the bike including removing the diode board and removing the corrosion from the connectors.
Only gremlin I am facing is the low beam doesn't come on when I hit the switch - the high beam works, the horn works, the neutral and hi beam light works as do the instrument lights, turn signals and brake light. I'm sure I'll figure it out.
Getting VERY close and will post pics when I have her running.
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... I ordered the atmospheric bolt...
So that's the official name of that there gun-drilled, funny lookin', speedo securing, battery cable holding bolt. We're now becoming quite the educated BMW maven aren't we, Ken? Nicely played [smiley=thumbsup.gif]
Could that headlight bulb low beam filament thingy be burned out?
Monte
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Burned out low beam bulb - would be way to simple!
The large bulb - I removed and it looks good.
The little bulb that also goes into the headlight - that one looks burned out - what does this bulb do?
It seems way too small to be a low beam light.
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The small lamp is a 'parking' light .
When you turn the key to the "P" position, this small lamp and the tail light come on .
You can also remove the key in this position and the lights will stay on .
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Thanks, Bob
Is there a way to test both the low and high beam circuit on bulb while I have it off?
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...Is there a way to test both the low and high beam circuit on bulb while I have it off?
Ken, if you have a volt/ohm meter you might use the probes to check for power to the headlight bulb socket. Check the wiring diagram... remember that brown is ground/earth. Touch the probe to the high or low beam wire and see what you get on the meter. Key must be on for power to reach the headlight bulb socket.
Monte
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If you have a multimeter, you can test for continuity of each filament .
If you don't have a meter, you can take two pieces of wire attach one to each of the battery terminals, then touch the other ends to the terminals on the lamp .
If you can tell which terminal has the brown wire in the mating electrical connector, this is ground, the wire from the negative battery terminal goes there .
The other terminals are for low and high beam, both of the filaments share a common ground, that's why there is only three terminals on the lamp itself .
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that makes perfect sense.