The New And Improved Unofficial R65 Forum V2
Technical Discussion => BMW Technical Q&A, Primarily R65 => Topic started by: azcycle on May 07, 2010, 12:29:55 PM
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I've got a couple questions about the clutch/shifting on my 81.
1) When the bike is cold, shifting is sometimes a bit of a bear, especially going down to 1st from 2nd gear. I occasionally get a false neutral between 1st and 2nd because it takes a bit of effort to get it into first as I'm downshifting, coming to a stop. A very noticeable "CLACK" sound. I'm not familiar with how these bikes SHOULD feel, so I'm not sure if this is normal. Now, when the bike is warm, shifting seems to improve greatly.
2) When clutch pulled in but in 1st gear... if I roll the bike back and forth, I can feel a TINY bit of engagement from the transmission. It's almost like the clutch is 98% engaged but still feel a bit of gear... not enough to move the bike at all if I rev the engine. When downshifting to a stop, dropping into first with the clutch fully engaged, I still "feel" the bike go into first with a very small "hum/whine" sound. Is this normal, or with clutch engaged should it be like the bike was in neutral?
1 and 2 might be related, and I need to adjust the clutch so there is NO engagement at all.
3) My bike has a noticeable sewing machine clatter from the timing chain, and I know it needs to be fixed. However, yesterday when I first started it up, I noticed something strange. The clatter I heard yesterday was NOT coming from the timing chain, BUT rather the transmission/clutch area. In neutral, I pulled in the clutch, and the clatter went away completely. Released the clutch, and a noticeable clatter from the transmission/clutch area. Now, once I began riding, the timing chain clatter started and I couldn't hear the transmission/clutch sound any longer.
I haven't drained/replaced the transmission fluid, but I intend to do that soon. What type of fluid do I need to use, and how much?
Any thoughts?
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From your description of the transmission, it all pretty much sounds like normal operation, about the only thing I can say that maybe a slight problem, is if the transmission input splines are dry, this may be causing some problem .
At least my transmission, doesn't like to be shifted into 1st gear, until you are stopped, or moving at a slow speed .
Your clutch cable may need some small adjustment, to get it correctly adjusted .
These transmissions will make some unusual noises compared to other makes of bikes when in neutral with the engine running .
For transmission oil, a good brand of GL4/GL5 gear oil will work, I'm not a fan of synthetic oils in the R65, I haven't had particularly good experiences with it .
You'll need one quart bottle of oil for the transmission, I think the capacity is 900 ml .
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Graeme,
Let me give some opinions on what you describe since I have experienced some of the same on my larger bike. Hopefully others will chime in to agree or disagree. First of all; be sure you are at a very low speed when downshifting into first gear, the turning rate ratio of lower gears are much increased in regards to your engine speed or rpm. You may want to blip the throttle to get the engine speed more synchronized with the faster turning low gears. The clatter you describe when the bike is idling with the clutch released makes me a little suspect in the condition of your transmission and the output shaft bearing or related transmission bearings. You may be experiencing some failure here. I would strongly suggest draining your transmission fluid and doing a very close inspection of the drain plug magnet and the color and condition of your transmission fluid. If it is milky looking or emulsified, you may have water contamination. That's a bad thing. Check the condition of your speedo cable boot where it attaches the transmission. A small paste residue on your magnetic plug is normal, but if you see or feel any metallic particles in-between your fingers you may need some possible transmission work. Photograph the magnet and fluid - let us look at it. Refill the transmission with good quality hypoid (I use BMW GL5 80w90) ride the bike for 50 or 100 miles and have another look at your magnetic drain plug. I doubt what you're experiencing is a clutch problem if the shifting through the rest of the gears is acceptable. Just my thoughts. Wait for some other replies and let us know what you find.
Here are some ugly pictures of my transmission rebuild on my /7 due to water contamination from a faulty boot that I neglected. Notice my drain plug? Looks like a metallic porcupine. I now pay special attention to this speedo boot and NEVER pressure wash your bike. Good luck.
http://s428.photobucket.com/albums/qq8/gruntyman66/78%20R100%20Trans%20Repair%205-09/
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Thanks to both of you. Mike, I'll let you know the condition of the tranny fluid this weekend, when I change it. To be honest, this bike doesn't even HAVE a speedo cable (no gauges at all) so the hole into the transmission where it goes is open. I've certainly avoided getting water anywhere near it because I know it would be bad. But how my father-in-law stored the bike is unknown. I'm pretty sure he kept it in a covered area most of the time, but there is a chance it sat outside in the rain occasionally, which means there might be some water contamination.
Keeping fingers crossed everything is okay. :(
I know this is a dumb question, but I don't have a repair manual. Where is the fill opening for the transmission fluid/gear oil?
Finally, can I use the same hypoid 80w90 gear oil for the final drive, too?
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There is an Allen head plug on the left side of the transmission around the shift linkage, remove it, then fill until the oil comes out of the opening .
The same oil is used in the transmission, shaft housing and final drive .
To do all three, you need 2 quarts of oil, you'll probably have about half of a bottle left over .
You really need to get that opening closed off, you can use the rubber boot that covers the speedometer cable, place a bolt or something similar into the opening on top, then apply some sealant .
There also is a bolt on the side of the 'spigot' that the boot goes over, you need to get a bolt in there as well, then cover with sealant .
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Graeme, Just to echo Bob's reply, I think the tranny takes 800cc, go slow, when the fluid starts to over-run the fill hole as Bob has explained, you're done. Just don't dump an entire liter in there, you'll have a mess to clean up. And don't forget to install the drain plugs with new washers first...don't ask how I know this.
I believe the swing arm (drive shaft) housing will take ±150cc and the final drive will take ±350cc. You may have an inspection bolt in the rear of your final drive, if you do - remove it and when the fluid starts to run out, you're done. DON'T over-fill. And DON'T over-tighten the fill and drain plugs. Just snug not to leak. Follow Bob's advice.
Fatal error having that cable bore open. Let's all say a silent prayer and hope you get lucky. You need to get that resolved and closed off sooner than later.
I'll check back in after the weekend, leaving for the central valley to visit dear old mom later this evening.
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This is what I use to fill my transmission, drive shaft and final drive.
I inherited it from my dad, who got it from who knows where. It took me a while, but I found a source or two online.
(https://bmwr65.org/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.pbase.com%2Ftomfarr%2Fimage%2F124307925%2Fmedium.jpg&hash=18ed5e23ddb3e65603b137f2ec5d9e0b2e31464e)
This image is from http://automotive.hardwarestore.com/90-547-oilers/goldenrod-flex-spout-oiler-664528.aspx
But Tractor Supply also has one, but their picture is lousy, so I don't know what it looks like. But many of us have a T.S. store near them, so I mention it.
http://www.tractorsupply.com/vehicle-maintenance-accessories/oil-gas-filters/vehicle-lubricants-oil/lubricating-equipment/313-oil-can-metal-32-oz-15-in-flex-spout-3959583
For the transmission it is easy, just pump until the oil gets to the bottom of the hole.
For the drive shaft housing, I used a measuring cup and I counted the number of pumps it took to reach 150cc, and wrote it down in my notes.
Then I did the same for the final drive.
But they are certainly cheap enough, that I'll bet some of the more tight-fisted of us would have no problem buying one. ;D
Oh, and don't try to downshift into first until you are at a slow walking speed. This is 1-2 MPH.
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Rob,
Brilliant idea!!!! Gotta get one of those.
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Well I couldn't wait until tomorrow so I drained the transmission tonight. Good news, I think. The gear oil was thick and dark... a bit old, but not contaminated. The drain plug had quite a ball of gritty sludge attached to it, but I only found one tiny sliver of metal that was more than dust. What I did find, though... was half a dozen small slivers/fragments (very small) of some sort of bright orange material. Looked almost painted? Not rust... very bright orange and I don't think it was metal. Smaller than pin-heads... I couldn't even get clear photos. Any ideas? So I *think* everything is good.
To fill the shaft drive housing, I see two bolts just on the final drive side of the swingarm/driveshaft area, one on top, and one on the bottom. I assume these are the fill/drain holes for the drive shaft. I put 150cc's of gear oil in there, yes?
Transmission and final drive fill/drain bolts are easy to find. I've got a very large syringe that I use to fill up my mountain bike forks, so I know how much fluid to put in.
Thanks for the advice everyone! Any additional thoughts are welcome...
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Hmmm, not sure what those orange bits could be - can you post photos? I suspect maybe they could be a piece of a seal, but I don't recall there being any orange-colored seals in the transmission, and I can't remember any orange plastic bits.
There is a fill bolt and drain bolt for the swingarm/driveshaft, and there is a filler bolt, drain bolt, and VENT bolt on the final drive itself. The fill bolt on the swingarm/driveshaft is on top right were the silver final drive bolts onto the black painted metal swingarm, and its corresponding drain hole is directly underneath. One drains the oil out of the swingarm from the bottom hole, and when filling, the proper amount if about 150cc - the thing I do is to just add about this amount, and check with a small screwdriver tip after giving the oil a chance to settle in there. Sticking the screwdriver tip straight down from the top into the fill hole, it will come to rest inside on top of the driveshaft. With the bike on its centerstand, you want the screwdriver tip to have ~ 2mm of oil covering its blade tip - this is the right amount.
For the final drive, obviously one drains the oil out the bottom-most bolt. You can fill the final drive from the fill/check bolt hole that is on the back edge (around 9 o'clock position when facing rear drive from the right side) until the oil reaches the bottom threads - OR- simply leave this bolt/hole open and remove the top VENT cap and pour the oil in from above. The same criteria for "full" applies. The VENT cap's threads can get corroded if the vent hasn't been removed and cleaned out in a long time, so be careful - these often end up getting stripped out and heli-coiled. The vent itself should look like a button-head mushroom with some small holes under the cap (which often get clogged with dirt). Once a year or so I remove mine and blow out the holes with some WD-40 or general cleaner - make sure air/cleaner fluid can get from inside the VENT cap to the outside.
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Also be very careful with the swingarm fill/drain plugs. It is VERY easy to strip these, esp. if you are trying to stop a pesky leak...
Check out pages 20 & 21 in the Owners Manual PDF:
http://www.bmwr65.org/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?action=downloadfile;file=R65OwnersManual_001.pdf
If you want to download this file, go here:
http://www.bmwr65.org/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1271881232
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Love the vintage oiler, Rob.
Here's another oil filler option I found at O'Rielly Auto Parts for around five bucks.
Features:
•The reservoir has a snap on top, is marked in ounces, milliliters, and half-pints, and the handle is a blessing. Add your lube at the bench and carry the filler to the bike.
•The blue part is a twist-to-open/close valve with a metal mesh strainer. When you think you're getting close to the tranny fill, it's easy to pinch off the flow and avoid a potential Exxon Valdez or recent the BP issue.
•The business end fits the BMW transmission filler hole perfectly! The stopper is most helpful.
I use this oil filler on the bikes and cars/truck. One of those deals that you wonder how you got along without it. [smiley=thumbup.gif]
Monte
(https://bmwr65.org/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi196.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Faa1%2Fmontmil%2FBMW%2520R65%2FOilFiller.jpg&hash=9eef7fde4da4107b0e78f361b63d3e751d9d2be6)
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I have the same funnel thing which Monte has - it is handy, but with mine at least if one leaves the screen in place at the bottom of the reservoir it takes a loooooooooooooooooooong time for that 90W oil to dribble out!
Patience, patience..
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I have the same funnel thing which Monte has - it is handy, but with mine at least if one leaves the screen in place at the bottom of the reservoir it takes a loooooooooooooooooooong time for that 90W oil to dribble out!
Patience, patience..
I bungee the reservoir to the bike. While the gear lube goes in, I'm multi tasking on something else... there's always something else. ;)
Monte
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Changed all the gear oil out and replaced with nice, fresh juice. Just took her for a spin up the local twisties... 50-miles round-trip up and down Mt Lemmon. Went from 95 degrees here at the house to 75 degrees and pine trees at the top... 9000 feet.
Shifting was noticeably better! I'll keep an eye on the drain plug and see if I can catch any more fragments of that strange orange stuff, and will let you all know.
Thanks for the help.
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Graeme,
Great news. I would change it again in 1000 or 1200 miles paying close attention to any changes in shifting, noise at idle with the clutch disengaged and keeping a very close eye on that magnetic drain plug.
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Yes, I'm pretty happy. The clatter that comes/goes with the clutch engagement is still there... no better, no worse. We'll see...
By the way...
Anyone else notice a faint whine in 3rd/4th gear that changes with throttle response? I'm hearing a slight high-pitched whine that I assume is the final drive... faint, and barely noticeable over the loud, straight pipes on the bike now.
I don't notice it in 1st or 2nd gears but at 'cruising' speed in 3rd/4th I do notice it, and it stops when I pull in the clutch and rev, so it's definitely a transmission/final drive sound. Hate to think about it, but it sounds a bit like the whine the differential of the Mustang made when it was on it's way out... :( Not NEARLY as bad, but definitely there. I noticed this BEFORE I changed all the fluids.
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A small update. Had a tiny leak from the transmission fill hex-bolt and snugged it up nicely. Then decided to futz around with the clutch cable adjustment a bit. I had to turn the handlebar adjustment almost all the way out, but I think I've got it dialed in for now. I want to to go back and do it the correct way (using the owner's manual instructions) but at least I got it so that:
1) there is NO "gear" feel when I put it in first and roll it back and forth with the clutch engaged like there was before.
2) Downshifting from second to first resulted in NO "whir/whine" engagement sound even with the clutch pulled in (which it was doing before).
3) the clutch "clatter" I mentioned in my first post is now 95% gone. I can still hear it a bit, but the slapping timing chain drowns most of it out now. ;D
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Graeme, the proper clutch cable adjustments on the R65 begins at the clutch arm on the aft end of the gear box, not at the handlebar adjustment. Check your manual for the correct sequence required and you'll keep your clutch much happier.
Monte
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Graeme,
4th gear has a faint warbling whine. It is normal unless it becomes reallly LOUD. :o
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Semper: good to know.
Monte: Yeah, I've read the proper clutch adjustment sequence... just need to do it. :) I'm still not clear on the sequence, though. The owner's manual starts by saying to adjust the handlebar lock nut and knurled screw and THEN going to the gearbox housing afterwards.
Is the handlebar adjustment ONLY for adjusting the lever travel? If so, I can probably turn the nut all the way IN and then start the measuring of "C" (C = 201 + 2mm)... and I assume "201" is mm?
If the clutch isn't engaging/disengaging where it should (like it was) I need to make adjustments at the gearbox... correct?
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Graeme,
Click into the R65 Technical FAQ/Procedures and then go to the R65 Manual link. On page 29 of the Owner's Manual, you'll find the clutch cable adjustment procedure. In bold face type, it states:
Note Do not adjust clutch lever free travel with knurled nut and screw on the handlebar.
Follow these instructions and you'll be good to go.
Monte
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Yep I downloaded the manual, read the instructions and am going to do the procedure tonight. Measured it this morning and my "C" equals 203.5mm
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The best Clutch adjustment procedure I have found was in the R65 BMW Owners Manual. That hand sized blue flip book -- Works like a charm and completely baclwards from what you would expect to be doing.
Since it is backwards from what you would expect, that would make it required reading for all airhead drivers...
(.02)
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Well. I'm thoroughly confused because I can't get it adjusted correctly. I've followed the directions in the owners manual exactly, everything is adjusted, but the tranny is STILL engaged about 10% no matter what I do.
I'm sure I'm doing something wrong, but I don't understand what.
Using the handlebar adjusters I got the length "C in the manual" set to 120mm exactly. I then used the adjuster on the clutch housing to adjust lever free play.
Transmission is still engaged. I can tighten the clutch housing adjuster ALL THE WAY IN and it seems to get a bit better, but it's still engaging.
This is the way the bike was when I got it, and I'm wondering if there is something wrong with it? The way I got it 100% disengaged last time was to futz with the handlebar nuts, but now I know that's a no-no.
Ideas? Thughts?
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I haven't used the 'official' method, on adjusting the clutch .
I may be told I'm wrong, wouldn't be the first time !!!
Here's what I do, first adjust the adjuster at the handlebar to relieve any tension on the outer sheath or conduit, I believe you adjust it in to accomplish this, but which ever way gets this done .
I can't quite remember this sequence, it's either disengage the cable from the clutch arm, or if the cable is free from the clutch arm continue on to the next step.
Adjust the adjuster at the transmission, to get about 1/4th inch free play on the clutch arm where the cable rests .
Reinstall the cable on the clutch arm if you removed it, then adjust the adjuster on the handlebar to get the 2mm or so of free play at the clutch lever .
Don't know if it will work for you, but that's pretty much the way I did the adjustment, and I got 80,000 miles on the original clutch, with probably 5-6,000 miles still left on the clutch disc .
Hope it helps you, and doesn't cause any more confusion .
What does the threaded adjuster at the transmission look like ?
Does it look like a bolt with a very thin head to it ?
I'm just wondering, if the original adjuster was lost, and a common bolt of a shorter length has been used instead .
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I got the length "C in the manual" set to 120mm exactly.
I guess you mean 201mm ?
Another method is to get an assistant to pull the clutch lever in half way at the handlebars then check that the operating arm is parallel with the gearbox.
This was the method of adjustment described in the early owners manual. The later manual introduced the 201mm method but I've carefully checked both ways and they amount to the same thing as near as I can tell. In fact the early method is an insight into what the 201mm measurement is aiming to achieve. My guess is that the method was changed because it's quite difficult to accurately measure the half pull vs arm is parallel thing and easier to measure the 201mm
To be honest the clutch should be pretty much disengaged by half travel never mind full travel so if you have it correctly adjusted and it is still not disengaged it sounds like there must be something wrong internally with your clutch plate or spring.
Just a thought you don't have one of these "easy clutch" pulley systems fitted that halve the effort at the handlebar but also half the travel of the operating arm ?
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Barry, as far as I know, it is stock. Yes, I meant 201. :)
Original thin-headed adjuster nut, too.
I'll try again. I'm hoping something isn't wrong internally.
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The Clymer manual states that if you cannot achieve the "correct" clutch cable adjustments, then the clutch cable is likely stretched beyond spec and needs to be replaced.
Your new scoot may have had a hard life before you started buffing it with a mink glove.
Monte
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I wonder, if you have the correct clutch cable for the R65, there are numerous lengths available from BMW, the cable end fittings are all the same so they will fit, but not necessarily work in all applications .
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Good thoughts, fellas. But it only frustrates me further.
I thought the exact same thing about the cable stretch. A few weeks ago, digging through a box, I found a brand spanking new clutch cable (I found the receipt for it, too) so I decided to install it today to see if it made any difference. It didn't.
I managed to record a short video (this is with the new clutch cable) and you can hear the transmission engage in the video. The video starts with me rolling the bike in neutral. Then, I drop it into first (struggle with it a bit :) ) You can hear the transmission "thunk" quietly both when the bike rolls forward and back... remember this is with the clutch pulled all the way in. I then take it back to neutral and roll it.
Now, while riding, it seems to shift just fine and if I'm stopped with it in 1st and rev the engine, I feel no engagement at all. So maybe it's okay?
So take a look at the video and tell me what you think. I added some annotations to so you know when it's in neutral and when it's in first.
Video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ICiJqCZC71w
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UPDATE
It's been about 1000 miles or so since the transmission gear oil change, so I thought I'd drain it again and see what I found. The plug had absolutely no evidence of metal or that strange orange mystery stuff that was there the first time. So alright! ;D
Since the change, I HAVE noticed that downshifting from 4th to 3rd has become difficult at times. I don't seem to remember it being that way before the change. However, after an unsuccessful downshift from 4th to 3rd, I will let the RPMs drop just a bit, and it will click right into 3rd. With no evidence of gears filing each other down, I'll just choose my shifts with a bit more caution.
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This is NOT a Japanese motorcycle transmission with a multi-plate wet clutch! ;D
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What???? :D :o
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These gearboxes and clutch mechanism do not have the "slip" that the wet clutches (bathed in engine oil) do and the cltuch is a single big heavy spinning disk instead of multiple smaller discs as commonly found on the Japanese bike engines. All this means is that one has to be slower and more deliberate with shifting these bikes than with a typical Japanese bike. And, it is more critical to match the rotational speeds (engine/transmission/driveshaft) to get smooth shifting than it is on a similar vintage Japanese bike. Some people who have prior experience with the wet clutch bikes but "0" experience with the dry clutch BMWs or Moto Guzzis have to adjust to the learning curve - which may or may not be applicable in your particular case. Think of it like shifting a modern, all-synchromesh 5 speed in a modern sports car versus a heavy duty, 3 ton truck transmission and clutch.
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Think 'farm implement' . [smiley=ROTFLMAO.gif]
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Definitely applicable in my case. Going from a Taiwanese CVT scooter to the r65... a bit of difference. ;) Before that, my shifting experience was limited to a 1978 Yamaha GT80 when I was 14 years old. ;)
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Have you examined the shifter linkage for wear?
Replacements are available from BMW.
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It seems my bike already has a replacement shifter linkage... looks exactly like the BMW Boxer Supplies model. There is a tiny bit of side to side slop but the up/down shifting movement is nice and tight.
If that is what you mean by "wear."
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I don't know if this will help you, but any time my R65 doesn't want to go into first gear with the clutch pulled in, I keep a gentle downward pressure on the shift lever and slowly let out on the clutch. I don't have to let it out very far before it snicks right down into first, whereupon I either let the clutch back out and go, or pull it back in if I still have to sit for a bit.
A similar trick works for my car, but emphatically, very emphatically not for my Triumph. What an awful noise.
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I keep a gentle downward pressure on the shift lever and slowly let out on the clutch.I don't have to let it out very far before it snicks right down into first
This is a good tip - your effectively recreating the drag produced by a multi-plate wet clutch so that the gears rotate slowly until the dogs line up for engagement.