The New And Improved Unofficial R65 Forum V2
Technical Discussion => BMW Technical Q&A, Primarily R65 => Topic started by: ukzknos on March 22, 2010, 08:22:09 AM
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My R65 is the twin front disc model (as is common for these bikes sold into our damp country)!
The front brake in dry weather is adequate, not fantastic, but in wet conditions it is seriously rubbish and I find myself too reliant on the rear brake.
Overall I would not give my R65 more than 5/10 for stopping power.
I would be interested in how good or bad you rate yours?
Steve
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If you don't already have them, upgrading the front brake lines to braided stainless steel will definitely give you more stopping power for the same amount of finger squeezing. If you already have stainless steel lines, perhaps some new pads are in order?
My bike's stopping improved alot with SS lines, though it still doesn't have the stopping power of my much newer (and much heavier) Kawasaki. But, I am thinking some new pads onthe front (planning to install in a week or two) will further improve its ability. Ultimately though, the brake design isn't as good as the current crop of multi piston calipers, though for their time they were pretty good.
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I would not ride my bike, if a significant chance of rain was in the forecast .
Up until I replaced the front rotors and brake pads from OEM, to EBC, it made all of the difference in the world .
I had a good 'acid test' in August of '08, I have an 11 mile ride from work to home, it started raining very heavily about 30 minutes before leaving work, I rode home in several inches standing water all the way, plus a couple of flooded intersections, and still had adequate braking .
My suggestion would be first replace the OEM brake pads, I've got EBC FA18's installed .
If you have ATE calipers, you need to 'modify' the metal backing plate of the pads, to fit your bike, took me about 45 minutes to remove the required material .
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The brakes were not exceptional in their days so will seem poor by modern standards. My single disc improved some with new EBC pads and I find them adequate for one up use in the dry. Two up requires more planning ahead. I go slower in the wet but agree wet performance is not so good and I think the only way to improve them would be cast iron rotors although sintered pads may be better than others in the wet.
Ultimate stopping power is hard to assess from just the lever feel. BMW deliberately set the master cylinder /caliper ratio so that you had to squeeze really hard for full braking performance which is why the lever is so firm by modern standards. A smaller master cylinder piston might help if you would prefer something closer to 2 finger braking.
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I found out that the previous owner of my LS fitted a 14mm master cylinder (replacing the original 15mm one). Now that the new EBC pads have bedded in the front brake (twin disk and Brembo P8 calipers) is good - powerful with plenty of feel.
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I agree about replacing the OEM rubber lines with aftermarket flex stainless lines, that made a noticeable difference in itself .
I have the EBC steel semi floating rotors .
But I have to agree, that compared to the oilhead I have, the brakes are quite dated on the R65, even with the upgrades .
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Steve... ive no problems at all with my 79 twin disc i had an MOT a couple of weeks back, chatting to the guy testing the bike i asked how they compared to other bikes he replied ..these are as good as they get, praise indeed from someone testing bikes all day.
When i rebuilt the bike i fitted stainless lines and new pads looks like it payed off.I would check the master cylinder piston if its 14mm its the single disc, if you ring Motorworks and give them your frame number they will tell you what the brake spec was when built.Or put it in the real oem site
http://www.realoem.com/bmw/select.do?vin=6346898&part=&kind=M&series=K56&body=ohne&arch=0
Lou
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Lou
What make of pads did you put back in?
All
Does anyone know what the difference is between the EBC part No.s, i.e. FA18, FA57, FA77, etc.
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Th EBC FA18 is a graphite pad material .
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Lou
What make of pads did you put back in?
All
Does anyone know what the difference is between the EBC part No.s, i.e. FA18, FA57, FA77, etc.
To be honest i cannot remember i just gave Motorworks a list of all the bits i wanted so im assuming they gave me a standard stock item ..there are ATE brakes though.
Lou
Theres only one on the website for mine Part No BRA 01357
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Folks, I just have to chuckle. During my college days, I rode a 1953 Triumph. Talk about "planning ahead" for your stops. [smiley=furious3.gif] Forget anything resembling a panic stop...
Both my R65s offer excellent braking for the vintage. As a matter of course, I try not to push the vintage BMWs too hard. Besides, I grew up on automotive drum brakes, too. I know fear.
Monte
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Hey Steve,
My brakes were truly dreadful when I first got it - to the point where I could pull the lever all the way to the bar.
After replacing the old spongy line with a braided line and some more aggressive pads - (got no idea what the pads are though) the difference was amazing. Now when I give it a decent pull the bike pulls up in a predictable manner.
I still however use a smidge of back brake anyway just for habit.
Pete
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I would say my brakes are excellent, plenty of feel and enough stopping power to test a 100-90/18 Bridgestone to the limit.
I thought they were very good even with the old rubber hoses and wavy front disk rotors.
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I'd suggest that if you are using the OEM BMW stainless steel rotors that you do NOT go with the sintered metal pads - those are best used on cast iron rotors
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I'd suggest that if you are using the OEM BMW stainless steel rotors that you do NOT go with the sintered metal pads - those are best used on cast iron rotors
The pads i got had Platinum/ Ferodo in them ? it says for stainless and cast iron they werent expensive though.
Lou
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I'm researching brakes a bit for mine (adding them to the list of things to do!) I've got rubber lines on the front and they're starting to crack a bit and the front feels spongy. The local bmw dealership told me the fluid was dark and needed changing so I'm probably going to do it all at once.
Also... rear drum: It's obviously not a great brake, but what is "normal" on these? I literally can STOMP on the rear brake and it will just barely bring me to a stop, and far from fast. No where NEAR locking up. Is this normal... do I need to adjust it... new pads.... both?
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I still have the original 31 year old rubber brake lines fitted which by the way are rubber covered nylon or something similar in fact I suspect they are no different internally than the much vaunted after market braided lines. As for their condition try this for an experiment - measure the diameter with a digital caliper and then squeeze as hard as you can on the brake lever. The result was no measurable expansion not even half a thou (.0005") so I won't be changing them anytime soon.
Our brakes are never going to compare with modern bikes. Mine did improve recently when I stripped and cleaned the caliper. The front wheel now spins freely with zero drag from the pads. Previously they were dragging a little i.e. not retracting enough. A sure sign that the pistons were sticking and absorbing some of the braking effort.
Your rear brake sounds worse than it should be. Although no one wants a rear brake that's too powerful it should lock if you really stamp on it at least at low speeds. Your brake shoes may be oil contaminated and also for max. mechanical advantage the brake arm should be at 90 deg to the operating rod with the brake applied.
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I fitted new rotors (grimeca) and bmw original pads to my R65 when the originals had done 43k. (SS brake lines in situ). Pleasantly predictable and progressive braking resulted, wet or dry. Of course it's not up to modern standards, regarding two finger stops.
However, the way I squeeze the brake lever has a big effect:
Making best use of the leverage effect. Squeezing the brake lever with the fingers at the outermost end of the lever really improves my stopping power.
Using all four fingers on the lever, this allows all the muscles in my hand to squeeze with their maximum power, which is a great deal more than can be achieved when just using two or three fingers.
Took a bit of practice to regain acceptable throttle and bar control, but this is how I used to brake when I was a kid. (and on previous airheads in years gone by).
At the moment my choice of 'squeeze technique' varies according to how fast I want to slow and how much control I need. Squeeling the front tyre is not so difficult.
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However, the way I squeeze the brake lever has a big effect:
Making best use of the leverage effect. Squeezing the brake lever with the fingers at the outermost end of the lever really improves my stopping power.
I very much agree with that after making a conscious effort to use the full length of the lever.
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Your rear brake sounds worse than it should be. Although no one wants a rear brake that's too powerful it should lock if you really stamp on it at least at low speeds. Your brake shoes may be oil contaminated and also for max. mechanical advantage the brake arm should be at 90 deg to the operating rod with the brake applied.
REALLY stupid question, but do I have to drain the final drive oil before I remove the rear tire to check the brake linings and lube the gears? The owners manual doesn't say so, but didnt' know if it was one of those "obvious no need to mention" kinda things that I don't know about.
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No, just remove the rear axle .
If the rear wheel is difficult to get out of the rear fender area, deflate the tire it will help .
You may need to adjust the rear brake, if brake shoes are hanging up on the drum .
Also, place a piece of plywood or something similar on the garage floor, and then extend the center stand onto it, it will give you extra clearance if you need it .
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I've never managed to get the rear wheel out without removing the rear mudguard especially as I have the large BMW mudflap fitted. It's easy enough one electrical plug and 4 bolts. I know there are other methods - some park the bike over a drop or remove the front wheel and tip the bike forward after securing the stand, basically anything that raises the rear enough to allow the wheel to drop out.
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Thanks, fellas.
Well that's another obstacle I have to overcome... my bike doesn't HAVE a center stand. At all. But I'd like to be able to do some of the necessary things (check the back brakes, replace leaking fork seal) before I get a center stand.
So I'm going to have to be creative with how get it up in the air (but nice and secure) supported on the frame somehow. Hopefully I can get it high enough I dont have to remove the mudgard, which would mean I have to drop the non-stock, custom sidebag mounts, too. Maybe I'll have to drop the exhaust so I can support it on the frame on either side of the engine.
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No centerstand? Until -and if- you do locate a stand, consider the economical small MC lifts available at Harbor Freight. I wouldn't trust one too far but for lifting the bike to a vertical position to aid in wheel removal, they may be helpful for you.
Monte
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Yep... see profile pic. Not sure where it ever disappeared to, but I never found it. I DID find a center stand out at my FIL's property, had the broken eyelet welded/repaired, purchased mounting hardware, and went to put it on the bike last week...
won't fit. what?
Because the center stand is for the old r69s frame my father in law had. But maybe I can sell the repaired r69s center stand to finance the r65 stand. ;)
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Well, without a center stand, getting the wheel removed would be interesting to say the least !!!
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My brakes are pretty good, by 1982 BMW standards - definitely better with stainless steel brake lines for the dual front disks, but I am hoping for further improvement soon as I fit on the brand new EBC organic brake pads and new rear shoes soon.
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The Horror Fright lifts are fine for this, but you'll have to improvise with some wood in order to lift the bike using the frame rails instead of the headers. They are a great tool for washing your bike as well, gets it up so you don't have to bend down so much, and you can roll it around (carefully).
The rear brakes on my Free Bike did nothing when I got it. That's because the PO had been very enthusiastic with the grease on the drive splines, it was caked everywhere inside the drum. I bought a new set of EBC shoes and also ran some crocus cloth around the drum surface, after cleaning out all the grease with brake cleaner. This helped a lot.
Others have told you to get the arm at 90 degrees when the brakes are applied, which gives the best leverage. You should be able to lock the rear brakes with a vigorous application.
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I was going to remove the rear wheel but my newbie valve clearance debacle (see other thread) took up most of my night. Besides, there is NO way I'm going to get that rear wheel off until I get a center stand.
I did look at the rear drum a bit, though. The brake arm is not even close to being 90 degrees... even disengaged it's pointing too much toward teh front of the bike. Engaging the brake obviously makes it even moreso.
What's the best way to get it to 90 degrees? I'm thinking I'll have to remove the adjuster nut completely, remove the arm itself and reposition it slightly back of 90 degrees so when it's engaged it is 90. Then tinker with the adjuster to get it into the best shape I can.
I don't think I've got any leaking seals, so either there was too much spline lube or the pads are just old/bad. I have yet to look through the pad sight-hole to see how much pad is left.
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There should be a small center punch like mark on the brake cam shaft, that mates up to the gap on the brake arm where it goes over the brake shaft .
Check to see how close it is to this .
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Thanks, Bob. Will do that tonight. :)
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You can easily get your rear tire off without a lift or a centerstand.
Remove the axle nut and washer from the rear wheel. Put a moving blanket on the ground (doubled over) and then carefully lean your bike over onto the right valve cover. Loosen the pinch bolt and remove the axle. Be careful not to scrape anything while working.
Although ungainly, you can make this work. And it will convince you to fix the centerstand! ::)
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Removing the rear brake cam shaft lever is simple. The challenge usually appears as you attempt to reinstall the brake arm onto the cam shaft; the brake cam shaft slips into the final drive housing as there is really nothing to prevent it from doing so. I usually have to remove the back wheel!
Unfortunately, the brake rod is still detached from the brake arm so my initial idea of pressing down on the foot pedal to hold the cam shaft was kinda like... D'oh [smiley=undecided.gif]
Swipe your wife's best down comforter and use it to protect your WeeMW as you lay it over -think roadside repair- and remove the back wheel. You ought to be able to access the brake cam shaft without to much strain. Good tip from Darryl the Elder as he just hates to tweak his back while working on the scoots!
Monte
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I got the tip from the owners manual for my 1928 R52. Even up on the centerstand, you can't remove the rear wheel from that bike. It does have a front centerstand that allows easy removal of the front tire. It's convenient for removing the engine and transmission, too. But not the rear tire.
BTW, expect the bike to smoke through the right cylinder for a bit after you start it up.
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isn't it the left side? left and right is when your sitting on the bike , correct? Hope i'm correct, that's the logic I used to put my valve covers back on, so please let me know.
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iman,
Yes that's correct left and right as you're sitting on the bike. The axle has to slide out the left side of the bike. Remove the axle nut on the right side, loosen the rear brake wing nut a few turns counter clockwise, lean the bike onto a comfy blanket or protective surface on the right side cover (protect exhaust, etc.), loosen the pinch bolt and slide the axle out of the left side. You may want to remove the tank, especially if it's full of fuel - before laying the bike over. Try not leave the bike on it's side for an extended period of time. As Darryl mentioned expect some smoke from the right side after assembly and start-up but it should clear in a short time. A few spoon-fulls of oil may sneak by your rings and get into the combustion chamber.
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Hey mike, thanks for that. actually, I miss understood what darryl was saying, hence the confusion. thanks for setting me back on track.
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Keep us posted on all the progress. Good stuff iman.
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I've read all the posts and am a little baffled. With a piece of plywood under the centerstand for more elevation, I have removed the rear wheel from my trusty 83 R65 several times without any problems at all. Yeah, you do have to angle the wheel a bit at one point, but I have not run into any of the issues mentioned.
Without a centerstand you could always use a couple of properly padded jack stands on the frame rails. Of course you would need a couple of assistants to lift the bike up while you place the stands. Or even a sturdy old crate with a pad on it so the pan isn't damaged. Probably a good idea to have them stick around while you remove the wheel as well, which should take all of five minutes. Just make certain it is steady before walking away from the bike so you don't get any surprises!
Just my two cents. Maybe I've just been lucky.
Make sure you have clean threads on the axle bolt, use your torque wrench, and lube those spines with the good stuff when you put it back together.
Steve
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My brakes are FABOO but I have cheated and installed a K100RS front end on my R65. Handles better at speed as well.
(ooooOOOoooOOooooOoOoOooO) 8-)
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Thanks, all. I've got this on the list of things to do. After readjusting the valves, messing with the clutch, and draining/refilling the fork oil, I need to take a break for a bit. :)
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carry an anchor with you to chuck out the back when you want to stop quickly ??????
I drive a 1962 valiant with front discs but no vacuum assist, so I probably don't have a comparative vehicle, but my R65 feels reasonable.
I consider the front to have ABS because there's no way I could lock up the front. If I stamp on the rear I can lock them up at slow speeds.
I would definitely like better fronts, I have replaced front brake lines with braided, and that did make a difference.
But I'm not into drafting behind cars like some temporary Australians. I tend to maintain a reasonable distance, I'm old enough to remember the ads they used to have 1 car length for every 10mph. 50mph = 5 car lengths.
John
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Too much NASCAR on television. American drivers act as if they are drafting at Daytona. If you leave a safe distance between a car in front of you someone cuts in for better track position. Dangerous...
Steve