The New And Improved Unofficial R65 Forum V2
Technical Discussion => BMW Technical Q&A, Primarily R65 => Topic started by: Crossrodes on May 02, 2010, 07:35:19 PM
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Hi folks.
Now that I'm back in Canada and restricted to the garage because of rain I am now taking the '79 R65 apart to lube the spline and check the drive shaft spring. If possible I want to also check the oil seal at the rear of the engine casing. I've got the swing-arm off and am about to tackle the transmission. I read one write-up about lubing the spline and this person did not remove the transmission completely...he just moved it back far enough to get at the splines.
My questions are...
Is there any trick to removing the transmission? and will I be able to get at the rear engine seal without removing all the clutch mechanism and if I do have to remove the clutch are there special tools that I need?
I haven't removed the drive shaft from the swing-arm yet but I was wondering if I will need any kind of spring compressor tool to remove and replace the spring?
I did a search on this stuff and didn't come up with anything on this site. Any information will be helpful.
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Although this process in the wiki is done with an 1982, the general procedure with a 1979 is quite similar. The process goes over removing the transmission. The 1979 clutch assembly is also different in appearance, but it is also kinda similar as far as how it all goes together.
http://www.suraklyn.com/r65_wiki/wikka.php?wakka=ReplaceClutch
If you need to replace the rear main seal, it is often advised to replace the oil pump cover seal at the same time. But, if the seals aren't leaking I probably wouldn't touch them. To access both these seals, one has to remove not only the clutch assembly, but also the engine flywheel. Before removing the flywheel, one MUST first block the crank from moving forward by removing the front cover of the engine (BUT FIRST DISCONNECT THE BATTERY CABLES BEFORE REMOVING front cover!). To block the crank, most people use a cut off section of Allen key inserted into the front of the alternator center bolt, and then gently screwing the front cover back on until it stops against the key - don't try to crank the front cover fully on - you just want it to be sure to hold against the possibility of the crankshaft/rotor sliding forward a few millimeters and dislodging a critical washer inside the engine case. IF you don't have the means to cut off an Allen key, some people find a nylon bolt/screw of sufficient diameter that it will tightly fit into the front hold in the alternator rotor bolt and cut it to length - I think something like 3/4" or 1" is about the right length. To remove the clutch assembly, you need some extra 6mm machine cap screws that are ~ 1.5 inches long to ease the clutch apart and ease it back together - more details are in my wiki article.
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Heres another article with photographs documenting the procedure. Im about to tackle this job next weekend.
http://www.webbikeworld.com/t2/spline/
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Thanks for the feedback guys. I think I'll have to set my laptop up in the garage to follow the procedures.
I don't know if I'll have to take the clutch apart...hopefully not. I'll keep you posted .
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the link fermin posted is the one I followed. pretty straight forward procedure.
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I personally rather consider the slide it back almost an inch method to be seriosuly cutting corners, but YMMV. You can't see inside to see the state of the clutch disk splines - only the transmission input shaft splines, and you cannot see well enough to determine if there is a leaking rear man seal or oil pump cover seal . It is more work though, but I'd rather have more information and be able to do a more thorough job even if it takes an extra hour or two every couple years. A' chacun son gout'!
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Nhmaf, you wrote 'ymmv', about the 'one inch' method. the problem with that is I have very little mileage! So very little experience. Now you've got me worried.
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The first time you perform this on a newly acquired bike, your best bet, is to remove the transmission from the bike, clean everything off real good, take a good look at the splines on the transmission, and clutch, as well as the input shaft seal on the transmission .
Once you know what condition the parts are in, then you can make a determination, as to whether you need to go any further or not .
Once it's done this way, you've probably got 5 years before you need to go back in there and perform it again .
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crap. should I go back in? I have a new problem that I'll post up. maybe if my bike requires a lot of down time I'll redo it.
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Well, at least you've got some lube on the splines, so that was a very good thing. If you've had this bike for quite awhile and have already taken the transmission off/checked clutch assembly/etc. as part of your maintenance schedule within the past few years then this slide-back method is probably OK. But if you don't know the "pedigree" of the beast and how well things have been maintained by the previous owners, I know that I'd prefer to check things out more thoroughly rather than getting stranded on the road (Again!).
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If you are experiencing shifting problems that might be associated with dry splines, by all means pull the transmission.
That way you can also get that little dab (not too much!) on the end of the push-rod.
I HATE that webbikeworld article. That one article has made me question everything they put out.
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Dang. i guess I should suck it up and go back in. Sorry, I'm starting to feel like I'm hi-jacking this thread. I'll shut up now.
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I was getting ready for the spline lube job on the '82 R65 when upon removing the clutch lever mechanism and piston ball bearings started to fall out. The plastic cup had a small tear and the grunge inside the bearing/cup/piston was bad and copious. The spring was broken, so this explained my 'soft clutch' described in a previous post. I have not been able to remove anything else from the transmission, but there may be parts of the former bearing remaining inside.
So now looking at a tranny removal.
Should I replace the piston?. Its a little rusty but inside part moves OK. Getting ready to order parts and the new cup has a bearing incorporated, any difference between the new and old model?
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Probably wouldn't be a bad idea to replace the damaged parts .
A little rust, can be cleaned up .
You don't have to remove the transmission from the bike if you don't want to, to get the clutch rod out, you can remove the swing arm, and you have all the room you need to remove and replace it .
But if the transmission input spline, and the mating clutch splines have not been lubed by you, good time to get it done .
From the looks of the old parts, they were not lubricated , probably led to an early demise of these parts .
At the very least, put transmission gear oil on the parts before reassembly .
Some owners apply spline lube grease to the parts as well .
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Well, I was concerned that there may be some rusted pieces back there in the tranny with no room to access and clean if I just separate it enough to lube the splines. Can I spray at will with a brake cleaner/WD40 or similar prior to separation and then blow dry?
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There seems to be a lot of metal missing, as the bearing that came apart, has an inner and outer race you only have the ball bearings .
If you haven't drained the transmission oil, you need to, as the missing metal may be on the magnetic drain plug .
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Thanks, I am guessing some of the missing material may still be inside the piston recess. I'll drain the tranny oil to verify, however, I drained and replaced the oil a couple of weeks ago and there was only sludge like material on the drain bolt.
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From the corroded appearance of the piston, I would replace it. No sense in putting shiny smooth new bearing in to roll against a rough /pitted surface. I would put a bit of wheel bearing grease on the new bearing when reassemlbing to help keep things lubricated and rust-free until some oil migrates back there. You want to use the 'thin/smooth' kind of grease, not the super sticky or fibrous kind. Or else just soak the new bearing in gear oil instead. You might be lucky and not have any bit of rusty metal inside the transmission, but I'd definitely re-drain and possibly peek around inside with an inspection light.
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Will do. Thanks. At the rate I am going the bike might end up looking like Mike V's....
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fermin, if you have not had the transmission removed from this bike since you bought it, you really should consider this. Especially in light of the condition the throwout bearing was in.
This would also allow you the opportunity to address the u-joint boot, if it shows any decay.
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One of the reasons I was taking the drive line apart on my R65 was to replace the coil spring and inspect the couplers. I wanted to do this as last summer the bike was sort of pulsating in the drive line when under heavy throttle when accelerating.
I now have the swing arm off and am looking at how to get at the spring to replace it. But I am confused (nothing new here). When I look at my Clymer manual on page 546, figure 45 illustrates a nut holding a rear coupling in place on the drive shaft....no spring in this illustration. However from the RealOEM parts diagram of the drive shaft a spring is shown in the assembly. Is the spring part of the drive-shaft assembly contained in the swing arm assembly or is it external to the drive-shaft and contained in the transmission output?
Also the nut that is shown in the Clymer manual at the end of the drive-shaft does not exist on mine. There seems to be a ring of some kind with a half moon cut-out in the outer edge. I don't believe it is a snap ring.... If it is I've never seen one like it. Assuming that the spring is contained within the drive shaft assembly can anyone tell me how to get this apart...remember this is a 79, twin shock R65. Later models are probably different.
The Clymer manual also indicates that I will need a hydraulic press to get the drive-shaft apart. Is this true and is there some kind of thing I could rig up in place of a hydraulic press? This could be a show stopper for me. Anyone???
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A lot of guys here have had their driveshafts out lately (not me), so you should get an answer pretty quickly. Or search.
I am pretty sure the R65 set-up differs from the Type-247's, and I don't have the large Clymer's book, but from what I've seen, there is not much Type-248 (R45/65) material in there.
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The cush drive mechanism was first implemented in the 248 bikes (R45/R65) I believe, and didn't make it into the larger bikes until the 80s (maybe 1980 ?) and often times the Clymer manual doesn't include all the variations. You DO need a pretty strong spring compressor tool to take the drive shaft and coil spring apart - somewhere I had some pics but cannot find them at the moment - someone else will probably have some shortly. The spring/cush mechanism is in the drive shaft inside the swingarm tube just a bit ahead of where it fits into the mating spline in the final drive assembly. One has to remove a spring clip and something else (my memory is fuzzy tonight) to get the end apart.
[EDIT - OK, I have found some relevant info and pictures in my copy of the HAynes manual]. PM me with your email address if you'd like me to email you my scanned PDF file of the pages - there's only 3 pages of stuff, but it is better than nothing and has some decent pics]
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Tranny moved back no problem and was able to lube spline. Also after prying the piston surface the bearing race came out and I have a usable piston. Now the only issue is the rod which appears somewhat corroded on its rear side. I can get it out by removing the rear wheel or removing the tranny. The driveshaft boot is OK and the U joint appears oiled. Do I need a special tool to remove these bolts?. I've seen a plate like adapter to a torque wrench or will a regular wrench do?. At this time I think its about the same effort to remove the rear wheel or the tranny
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The clutch rod, won't clear the swing arm, so it's your call, either the swing-arm comes off, or you remove the transmission .
A 12 point 10mm boxend wrench can do the job, but if it's the first time the bolts have been removed since their installation at the factory, they usually are a bit difficult to get broke free .
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I had to reinstall the swing arm bolts and rear brake in oder to apply force to the driveshaft bolts, but even then theres play in the driveshaft and I am afraid to apply full force on the Universal screw. When I try to unscrew one of the bolts the Universal joint wants to move up. Is this play normal?
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To undo the 12-point bolts on the Universal joint, I leave the bike in gear AND step on the rear brake pedal hard, AND then try to give the bolts a sharp. quick pull to get them free using the thin 12-pt ring wrench in the toolkit. You may also try giving the wrench a wrap with a hammer to get it started.
To tighten them, you can use the same small wrench and basically tighten those bolts about as much as you physically can with it without fear of snapping them off - unless you are allergic to krpytonite..
If you've got the transmission disconnected from the engine, well, it is going to be a bit harder to hold the u-joint from turning without some help.
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fermin,
Fun job isn't it? For safety sake make sure to stuff the boot or swingarm housing with a clean shop rag. If you loose a bolt or socket in there you will have a new challenge on your hands. Get the flange bolts snugged up, and swingarm pins reattached, after you reattach the foot brake lever you can apply the brake hold things in place while you toque the 12 sided bolts. Around 22 ft-lbs if my memory serves me correctly. Make sure your flex boot is in good condition, now is the time to replace if any question. Looks like you're getting water in your throwout arm. Is the piston boot in good shape? If questionable, replace.
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It was fun until the temperature started rising here in Miami. Yes I had to reattach the tranny, rear brake and swing bolts. Then step on the rear brake while trying to turn the little shaft screws, one hand for the bike one for the wrench and a foot for the brake. I was afraid to use my full strength before concurring I wasnt doing anything wrong. Like Bob wrote, they are a bit difficult to break free. Will try tomorrow
Thanks for all the help
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Wives, sons, daughters, siblings, etc. make perfect helpers for this procedure. My wife at 135 pounds was perfect for standing on the brake pedal. The special extension tool is very helpful for this procedure. Is there a nearby airhead or R65 owner that may have one to lend you? This area of repair is a test in patience and manual dexterity. Don't forget to clean threads, new short bolts if possible, no washers and blue locktite. Good luck. Hang in there.
http://s428.photobucket.com/albums/qq8/gruntyman66/81%20R650%20Restoration/Final%20Assembly/?action=view¤t=05-01-10Finalassembly025.jpg
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I couldnt wait. Went back after dinner and in 10 min had all 4 bolts loosened up no special tool required. Tranny off tomorrow and parts should be arriving by Tuesday.
Thanks for the help
Mike, I love looking at pixs of your bike.
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And I say clean, dry threads; new short bolts absolutely (it is his first time in there), no split ring washers, and no locktite. ;)
Only you can decide which you want to do. (Gotta have choices, right?)
And I've never checked the torque value when tightening them, as I've always used the foot on the brake and give it all you got with the 12-point box wrench from the tool kit method.
I've never had one come loose on me. And this is one place on the bike you don't have to worry about striping threads - steel into steel.
I just bought four bolts from Hucky's. I think he is down your way.
http://www.bmwhucky.com/007526.html Good, fast service.
26 11 1 242 297 driveshaft bolt M8x1x13mm 1981 on $ 1.90
(https://bmwr65.org/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.bmwhucky.com%2F0075pictures%2F007526%2F26111242297.jpg&hash=1ef71c121109fe50fb0c0fc46d66ca0b670cb6b3)
A lot of modern BMW dealers might carry these as well, like they do oil filters, I suspect.
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Yep, those are the bolts I ordered. No blue loctite?. Better as that stuff is going around $22.
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Clean & dry threads are what I've always been told.
When I asked about getting those internal threads clean and dry, I was told that aerosol electrical contact cleaner is the product to use.
And don't be shy about grunting with the small box-end from the tool kit.
Or, if you must, get one of the torque-wrench adapters.
I like to go around mine at least three times, drawing the two flanges together uniformly, from loose to tight.
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I don't use any locktite on mine - just give bring them up to "full torque" as I can manage with the small wrench in a couple stages. The final "grunt" seems to be plenty - leastways I haven't had any problems with them in years using this approach.
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I believe the Snowbum also says no LokTite or split washers on the bolts. Did mine with new bolts and dry n' clean. No later issues.
Hans, aka Hucky's, is a very nice gentleman to do business with. Large order or small, he responds quickly to your email queries, has an encyclopedic BMW knowledge and gets your bits to you pronto.
Oh, and his prices are good, too. He's gathering some small, special items for me and another gent right now.
Monte
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Thanks for the tip on Huckys, local, knowledgeable and good prices. If he only did house calls...