The New And Improved Unofficial R65 Forum V2
Technical Discussion => BMW Technical Q&A, Primarily R65 => Topic started by: Melena on March 21, 2010, 09:58:52 PM
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Okay guys! I need your help.
Had a wonderful ride today and luckily this happened near the end of the ride. This is what happened.
I'm riding at a moderate rate of speed, not really fast, following my friend, on a narrow road with a good amount of traffic coming in to the town of Sebastopol from the coast and I suddenly hear a terrible sound coming from the bike.
This sound was like a chain coming loose and getting tangled up in something. There is a sudden loss of power and I pull over to the very narrow little strip by the side of the road. The bike has stalled, and the 2 top red idiot lights are on. Okay. I try to put it in neutral and it won't go. Can't seem to change gears at all. I don't recall a chain on my bike as it's a shaft drive. Hmmmm. I look around but don't see any problems on the outside. Luckily there is a wide driveway just behind me so I get it pushed back to there with the help of a passerby.
Another lucky thing, there is cell service here. :D Good. I call my friend and he's waiting for me up ahead. He comes back and tries to start it, but it doesn't turn over at all. He does get it into neutral, but no luck in starting. So, he goes and gets his truck and trailer and I sit and read in the sunshine (nice to have a book around in these circumstances - The "Tao Te Ching" even ;) )
So, now the bike is on the trailer waiting until tomorrow when we can get a better idea of what's going on. The idea of the chain noise got us to thinking about the timing chain. Has anyone had their timing chain come apart while riding? What would that sound like? Or is it the transmission? Or is it something more sinister? :o
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Sorry to hear of your incident !!!
I would start, by draining the oil out of the engine, transmission, shaft and final drive, to see if you can narrow it down a bit .
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If it really is a chain sound, you may have had the timing chain come apart of the tensioner on it break and rattle about in the timing case.
But I would first drain all the oils out as Bob suggested and look for (and hope not to find !) metal pieces in the various locations. Hopefully it is something that can be easily repaired without too much $$.
When my clutch splines let go on me it also produced a terrible racket - sort of like a 50 HP food processor with some bolts and screws tossed into it. If that is the case - you won't find any bits of metal anywhere in any of the oils, and the timing chain will appear OK, - you'll have to pull the transmission off to see the damage in that instance.
We'll have our fingers crossed for you !!!
:(
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Mike, if it was the splines wouldn't the bike still go into neutral or shift? I've never had either one go bad on one of my bikes but since the spline is behind the tranny it seems like function would still be there.
Also, if the timing chain parted is there a possibility of valve damage? :(
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Mike, if it was the splines wouldn't the bike still go into neutral or shift? I've never had either one go bad on one of my bikes but since the spline is behind the tranny it seems like function would still be there.
Also, if the timing chain parted is there a possibility of valve damage? :(
If it's the clutch splines/input shaft splines to the gearbox, you're dead in the water. Well, the bike runs, but when you shift gears you get no power to the wheel. It happened to Graham out in Oregon - he's seen it TWO many times. There's usually symptoms just prior to the spline going as well. Hard shifting, etc. When his input shaft failed it went....ring-a-ding-a-ding-a ding-a ding (not like nuts & bolts in a food processor)
Melena, how many miles are on your bike? Per Leon Friday of Scooterville BMW, He "never had to replace a timing chain on a boxer motor." Unless the bike has 100k miles on it or more, Graham wouldn't even suspect the timing chain. IF it is the timing chain, then possibly the tensioner let go or there was so much slack in the chain that it couldn't do it's job.
Sorry to hear of your bad luck, Melena! We'll keep our fingers crossed that it's nothing serious.
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If it's the clutch splines/input shaft splines to the gearbox, you're dead in the water.Well, the bike runs, but when you shift gears you get no power to the wheel. <clip> There's usually symptoms just prior to the spline going as well.Hard shifting, etc.When his input shaft failed it went....ring-a-ding-a-ding-a ding-a ding (not like nuts & bolts in a food processor)
Melena, how many miles are on your bike?Per Leon Friday of Scooterville BMW, He "never had to replace a timing chain on a boxer motor."Unless the bike has 100k miles on it or more, Graham wouldn't even suspect the timing chain.IF it is the timing chain, then possibly the tensioner let go or there was so much slack in the chain that it couldn't do it's job.
Thanks Aïda.
I didn't have any of that happen at all. It was running it's very best. I'd just had the carbs balanced and I haven't had it run so smooth before. But, I was having an intermittent problem with starting. I would push the starter and it would just go "rrrrr-rrr-rrr-rrr-rrr" and not start. But would start the next time I tried it. Of course it wouldn't do it when the mechanic tried it. This is all it does now and won't start at all. It was shifting just fine.
The problem was sudden and not very loud at all. It sounded like I got a chain or strap of some sort caught up in the wheels. You know, like when you're riding a bicycle and the chain comes off. But I hadn't run over anything and there wasn't anything there. It was sudden and didn't last long. There was a loss of power and I was on the side of the road within seconds. Then it wouldn't start again.
Oh, # of miles - around 45,000 to my best figuring.
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I ran out of words in the previous post. ::)
The bike is still in the trailer waiting for me to make some decisions. I went and checked it out this morning and there is no oil under the bike at all. I checked the oil to make sure there is oil in there, and it was just fine.
I think I'm just going to take it to my mechanic as he works on these bikes and does an excellent job. I don't have the room or the tools to take care of this problem no matter what. I did a search on the forum about timing chains, which would be the easiest thing to fix, and I wouldn't want to try it myself :o . If it's anything worse than that I wouldn't do it myself either unless I had a garage and a year to work it out. I'm up against time now as the riding season has started and I've got places to ride and rallys to attend. ;)
So, tomorrow it will go to the mechanic and I'll see what he has to say. It should be pretty easy to see if it is the timing chain. We will, of course, check all the other things too.
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go "rrrrr-rrr-rrr-rrr-rrr" and not start
So to clarify it is currently doing this meaning the engine is turning over?
And you were able to push the bike - clutch in or out?
What other vital signs of life does your bike have?
if your engine is turning over do have you got spark by any chance?
At a vague guess the noise you heard sounds vaguely reminiscent to the noise I heard when my bean can mashed the hall sensor to peices. With no spark bean can sensor it will crank till the battery is flat but it aint going to start.
That said it doesn't explain the difficult shifting....
Also what year is your bike?
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Good thoughts, Pete, especially the bean can (let it be so minor!).
But I do need to point out that Melena said to Aïda: "It was shifting just fine."
And it's an '83 (signature).
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When my clutch splines went, like Melena described - I initially had a hard time getting the transmission into neutral, as the engine could no longer spin the transmission to help with realignment of the gears if they weren't lined up just right (if you have a transmission out of a bike and test it by shifting gears up & down, you may often have to give a bit of a tweak to the input or output shaft to help the shifting process). But, once I did get it to work after a bit more trying & rolling the bike foward in gear after having initially stopped it, it would shift into neutral, etc. But, I tend to think this isn't Melena's situation as one could start the bike (it just made such gawdawful noise I didn't want to let it run as it was audibly chewing metal and I didn't want to worsen the damage).
You mentioned that it just goes rrr-rrr-rrr without starting - I am wondering if the electric starter motor is running, but either the nose/bendix has somehow broken (it could be if it somehow engaged on a running engine @ 3500 RPM) or the starter gear's teeth are gone? An easy test that requires no tools to tell if the engine is at least turning would be to pull the timing plug out of the case and look to see that the flywheel ring is turning as you crank the starter. You could also try taking a valve cover off, pull the sparkplugs out, slip the transmission into 2nd or 3rd gear and roll the bike forward to observe the flywheel, valve/rockers and piston crown (through the sparkplug hole). IF the rockers/valves don't move but the flywheel rotates and the piston crown is visible through the sparkplug hole, the timing chain is broken. If the piston doesn't move and the flywheel doesn't move, the clutch splines are gone.
It may not tell you any additional info, but it might help with the isolating the problem to the front or back part of the engine/drivetrain.. My fingers are crossed that it is simple and inexpensive!!!
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And it's an '83 (signature).
well spotted :-[
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And it's an '83 (signature).
well spotted :-[
First place I look. Then their name (like me). Then I go to their profile, hoping for a hint there.
Everyone should have it in their signature so we don't have to wonder.
But my bike is coming out this year as even more of a frankenbike than it was before, with a '81 engine....
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Oops! I messed up on the rrrr-rrrr-rrr sound when trying to start her up. It just goes click-dnk. Maybe an rrr click-dnk. That's it. I realized my mistake when it was tried by the mechanic and then I remembered that there is nothing turning over at all.
Got the bike to him this morning. He's pretty busy and will probably get to look into it tomorrow. I told him the story and he said his best guess is he doesn't know. But, he says that the sound I described sounds like it might be a ...................... a sucked in valve.
Oh, yeah. That would make sense. It does have the old valves in it. I remember this discussion from long time ago - the old valves with the narrow stem and made for leaded gas. So, if that's it, she's getting 2 new upgraded valves. He's had enough experience fixing Airheads that he's got a good feeling for what could be wrong. I'm just hoping that it's not too bad and didn't create more damage inside.
Too bad we didn't think about that yesterday. Could have had the head covers off to take a look inside.
But for now it's all speculation. There's nothing like taking a look to see what's really going on.
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I'll keep a good thought... :-/
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It just goes click-dnk
That would be the starter solenoids trying to turn an engine that won't turn. It really could be a lot of things.
here's hoping it is an easy fix. Fingers crossed.
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Michael, the mechanic, hasn't had a chance to get into the bike yet, but he did pull the plugs. One of the plugs was smashed and broken. :( Sigh. That must have been part of the rattling sound I heard.
Luckily this happened now instead of the middle of the summer. In the summer he'd really be backed up. At this point he's got some bikes on the lifts to finish up and he'll be able to get into it next week. Then it's just waiting for parts.
Looks like I won't be riding it for awhile. Oh well. The weather has turned rainy and cold again. [smiley=vrolijk_1.gif]
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Another silver lining is that it didn't happen half-way across the country! I don't think I have any parts that would help, I've got a pair of "jugs and slugs" but they are the cast iron ones from an '80... It'll be interesting to find out just exactly what the failure was...
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We're thinking positive thoughts...and sending them your way! Hope you're not off the bike for too long.
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Animo Melena! it's only "fierros" (steel) and can be replaced. good you are fine.
saludos!
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Animo Melena! it's only "fierros" (steel) and can be replaced. good you are fine.
saludos!
Hi Lucio! Glad to see you around here.
Yes, you are right, and I've got the right person on it.
I'm lucky it was on a 2 lane road instead of on the freeway when it happened. As it was, I hardly knew that anything happened except for the strange noise, the loss of power and then it not starting. Very undramatic. Frustrating, but not dramatic.
Mechanic hasn't had a chance to get into it yet. He had some other bikes in for an appointment that were ahead of me. There was a sudden rush for people to get their bikes fixed - it's amazing what a bit of good weather will bring out. ;D
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It's always frustrating to have to wait for somebody to get to your project.
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It's always frustrating to have to wait for somebody to get to your project.
damn after reading all those posts, still no conclusion. Waiting with baited breath for the actual problem
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Me too....read, read...then wait! Thank goodness all was safe for you on the road when it happened. From the description you have provided, it sure does sound like some hard part got itself in the way of the plug. By why just one side? You pulled in the clutch fast enough??
Please make it simple, Lord!
I am now very cognizant of valve wear..in that it isn't always the top part that wears down and fails. The Keepers don't keep either!!
Waiting with bated breath!!
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Okay! Michael the mechanic just called. Got some information.
It did suck the left exhaust valve. And it did do a bunch of damage to cylinder and piston. :'( He said there are signs of overheating, but the right side showed no signs of overheating at all. So there must have been some kind of imbalance, but he's not sure at this point what that would be.
There was someone at his shop who has a left side top end that's in good condition and he's going to see how much he wants for it to see if it's cost effective. Plus I just called another contact I have here in Santa Rosa who might have something.
Now I'm just waiting on return calls. I'll be going over to look at the bike tomorrow and take some pictures.
Gee! This sure sounds like what happened to Blueberry.
Oh, and I will get the whole top end done while he's in there. New valves for both sides, of course!!
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I know there are a lot of parts in CA, but:
Re-Psycle 614-837-1160 EDT
Matt @ Boxerworks 706.310.0031 EDT
Airhead Salvage 512-357-2842 CDT
etc.
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Thanks Rob! Already got the parts. They're from an R65 that had right side valve failure a few years ago. A good story on how I got it. I'll tell it on the chit chat section. ;)
Here's some pictures. I forget that I have to back up farther and so one picture is out of focus. I think it's an old habit from my old 35mm SLR camera. But you'll get the idea.
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Shucks... Such a sad picture. And those exhaust stub threads look perfect [smiley=rolleyes.gif]
Monte
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It's a sad sad thing, for sure, Monte. But all will be well. I've got a good mechanic. He just finished rebuilding my friends R100T after the engine seized. He does a good job of finding the best deals on parts too.
The right side was in perfect condition. But the whole top end will be refurbished. All the parts, the good right side and the new/used left side that I just got and is in perfect condition, are getting sent over to someone to do all the machining and putting in all new valves and springs. Michael will be doing some other things too. I can't remember it all right now.
This little bike will be raring to go soon! 8-)
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Well, the 'bottom' line is now you know and it will end up all new again with labour, parts and $. Sounds like a Blueberry story alright. So now we all have one version of the 'sounds' of carnage inside the cylinder when a valve does go.
Thanks to Rob for all those numbers from all of us.
Keep yer chin up girl!! [smiley=thumbsup.gif]
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Melena, if the heads have not gone out, and Mike doesn't have a love-affair with his guy, I HIGHLY recommend taking them to Bob Grauer. 408 248 9732
rgrauer at earthlink.net
He is a retired machinist, and a real sweetheart of a guy. He loves building and working on airheads, and does HIGH QUALITY work!
(https://bmwr65.org/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.pbase.com%2Ftomfarr%2Fimage%2F68515488%2Fmedium.jpg&hash=7f5256e7068c048aaccf0eab2bcc58dfd2d6c634) (http://www.pbase.com/tomfarr/valve_job)
Bob's sidecar rig - that he built!
(https://bmwr65.org/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ffarm4.static.flickr.com%2F3403%2F3333639524_9513feafd9.jpg&hash=6b3b6b560da30ad5685ba92c337a2141fef7b1bd) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/rgrauer/)
and you know I make my pictures "clickable"!
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Hi Melana
Nasty experience! But as you are past it, you can be looking forward to getting a "new" engine. If your mechanic has the time, you should make him check the timer chain for wear. I changed mine including the tensioner at 56000 miles.
If you do that and get your carbs rebalanced you will have an engine that really purrs [smiley=thumbup.gif]
greetings from a windy and grey north - good riding conditions though
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Hey, Rob
I recall my question for you today came up sometime back regarding the bead-blasted gasket surface on your cylinder heads. Was there any issue with head gasket sealing after reassembly? Suppose we'd have heard about it by now but don't recall a definitive answer.
Monte
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Hey, Rob
I recall my question for you today came up sometime back regarding the bead-blasted gasket surface on your cylinder heads. Was there any issue with head gasket sealing after reassembly? Suppose we'd have heard about it by now but don't recall a definitive answer.
Monte
I never had such clean-sealing heads as when I got them back from Bob. I had to write and ask if he had checked them for flatness and done any milling. He said no.
But no, the basting media (I forget what it was) caused no issue with mine.
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Hi Melana
Nasty experience! But as you are past it, you can be looking forward to getting a "new" engine. If your mechanic has the time, you should make him check the timer chain for wear. I changed mine including the tensioner at 56000 miles.
If you do that and get your carbs rebalanced you will have an engine that really purrs [smiley=thumbup.gif]
Trolle,
Good idea. I'll ask him about that.
Rob,
It's already a done deal. Michael has a guy here in Santa Rosa that does his work. And Michael is very picky. The guy here does a good job. I'll let you know more as the work progresses. I'll try to get pictures of the new heads when they come back.
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Melena, now that you know what happened mechanically and have a fix underway, what caused that piston to hole out like it did? Was there a lack of fuel to that cylinder? Perhaps an oil passage was blocked? Do you use an SG rated oil?
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I think the valve head mangled the piston crown, when it broke off .
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Bob, a broken valve then would indicate a flaw in the metallurgy or some form oscillation that caused the metal to fatigue. Any suggestions how to prevent such a happening?
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About the only thing I can think of, is to replace the valves .
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Well, I think this article answers my questions. http://www.aa1car.com/library/ar1192.htm
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Good article!
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Michael said that the left side overheated. The right side didn't though. So, it was some sort of imbalance.
The bike was not running very smooth and it would die at stop signs. Also it was having an intermittent starting problem. It would not turn over at all when I pushed the starter button. But when I pushed it again it would start. I couldn't get it to do this for anyone else though.
The day it was doing this I took it over to Michael to take a look and he synched the carbs. They were way out of synch. So, I'm thinking that might have been part of what happened. After he did that the bike ran the smoothest ever since I've had it.
Otherwise he says it might be another fuel problem. He won't be able to tell until he gets it back together and gets it running so he can check it out.
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I take it Michael does all of your maintenance work, like valve adjustments? That way he would have known about any recession going on.
When my original heads were nearing the end of their life, I was on a trip and I pulled into a rest area and the engine just died.
I could start it, and it would keep running at speeds above idle, but that is it.
When I adjusted them at the motel the next morning, the left exhaust valve had negative clearance.
That is when I found out how good Bob Grauer is.
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Ouch! Sorry that happened, Melena. I hope it doesn't kill you financially, as that's some expensive work and parts. How long had it been since valve clearances were checked, as your running issues that day sound like a closed up valve?
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Rob, This is the first time Michael has done anything on my bike, besides balancing the carbs that day.
My friend and I have always done all the work on it since I've had it except for one time. That was 2 summers ago when I had my foot surgery. I took it to the local BMW dealer and the only reason I did that was because I had a very nice gift certificate from work. They don't do older bikes anymore usually, but the owner said he would take care of it as he's the only one there that knows about the Airheads anymore. Michael had worked for him for awhile, but hasn't for a long time, probably when they decided to stop working on the Airheads. In fact, he found the carb synchronizer in the trash and took it home and refurbished it. So, the carbs were not balanced except by ear, I'm sure.
I have hardly put any miles on it since that time. No riding in 2008, and hardly any at all in 2009. Just a bad year for riding, it seems. So, since there weren't that many miles on it since it had the 30,000 mile tune up, I didn't even think about checking stuff out. It was running pretty good except for the hard starting on March 17, and then the following weekend. But after the carbs were balanced it was running really smooth.
Michael does work on lots of BMW's around here as the dealer has a reputation of being a crumudgeon. He could have a really nice shop, but he just has this attitude problem, and he doesn't work on Airheads. Had lots of referrals to Michael, so I know he's okay. Plus my friend's R100T, that he just got last year and had the engine seize on him on our way to the Autumn Beemer Bash in Quincy last September (that's another story), has been basically rebuilt by him. And now it is running really sweet. He does his best to keep the costs minimal.
Oops! running out of characters. ;D That's all folks!
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Good to hear it is getting fixed.
When do you get it back for riding?
On a completely unrelated tangent it is interesting to see in the photos of the heads that 'r65 'is cast into them... not to mention yet another bmw symbol. When I first got my R65 and was showing it off to some mates, they were amazed to see the sheer number of times BMW was written and/or the prop symbol used. We ended up counting the number of times bmw was written over it - carbs, dash, tank, tank cap, engine, hand grips, guages, rack, some bolt heads, wheels etc etc...
This now brings the total up to a lot +2.