The New And Improved Unofficial R65 Forum V2
Technical Discussion => BMW Technical Q&A, Primarily R65 => Topic started by: Barry on March 20, 2010, 01:41:08 PM
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An unwelcome surprise greeted me when I changed the oil today. The pictures tell it all. Notice how the filter element has started to pull away from the end cap. You would think this might have caused low oil pressure but I've never noticed anything unusual. The oil pressure light went out instantly at start up and didn't so much as flicker even at very slow idle speeds of under 800 rpm. I will drain the filter overnight and dismantle it to to see if it is badly clogged hopefully not with the metal from my bearings.
As to the cause :-
The oil was 15W40 which should have been OK even at the sub zero temperatures we have had this winter.
The oil had only been in approx 1700 miles and was not particularly dirty.
In my zeal to avoid the 2000$ O ring problem I removed the outer gasket at the last change and this may have put undue pressure on the filter as the O ring had been crushed square.
The filter is a Hiflo HF161 which may be suspect. Luckily I have a two piece filter as a replacement which should be stronger.
Anybody have any insights or had this happen to them.(http://)
(http://)
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Yep looks familiar. I thought I was clever using a Fram 6061 sourced from the local auto parts counter. The construction of your filter looks very much the same. Mine had no support ring in the middle of the filter and came out as flat as Kansas. I've since switched to the OEM.
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I take it your engine survived OK ?
I know there is a bypass valve to keep the oil circulating in case the filter should get blocked.
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I did some inquiring about 4 months ago, about installing an oil pressure indicator on my '81 R65 .
The response I got, was that on a cold start-up, oil pressures are at least 100 psi on an airhead bike of our vintage in the 40-50 F. temperature range .
I think it would be wise to stay with the OEM hinged style filter, due to their short length of filtering media between the metal end supports .
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Barry,
From Snowbum's site...
"NOTE: If a filter should collapse, due to faulty manufacturing...perhaps a lousy central metal tube in the filter itself?...or maybe excessive end pressure in installing(??).....the canister bypass valve should...one hopes...allow engine oiling. Have been at least TWO reports of filter failures ruining engines. I suggest using ONLY BMW filters, or the Purolator. I am sorry to say that FRAM filters...including their car filters...seems to be of questionable quality these days. I think the hinged filters are stronger as I have noted, above... certainly easier to use."
I would try a new OEM filter as Bob states and as a lot of the responses indicate.
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Thanks Mike.
I looked at Snowbums site but missed the bit about "excessive end pressure in installing". Well I certainly had excessive end pressure and I guess once the filter pleats get kinked they will fold flat under the oil pressure and tend to crush the central tube. That together with a non oem filter that had no additional support ring inside the tube must have been the cause.
I will measure the canister depth carefully this time and use the outer gasket if the calcs indicate it is required.
I've already dismantled the filter and as far as I can see there are no bits of metal on the element so it looks like I got lucky.
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Although it looks mighty scary, the filter was likely passing oil along with help from the oil bypass valve. I run the two-piece hinged filters, those aka: bendys. Besides being easy to install, they seem quite strong in compression.
Check the bum's site and the ABC tech section for an easy way to measure the filter cavity depth so as to know if a paper gasket or +/– shims are needed. At 1700 miles, the O-ring ought to have had enough elasticity to return to a fairly rounded cross-section. Your particular filter may have needed the gasket so all the more important to use a vernier to measure for the new bendy.
Did the filter cover plate "pop" out as the bolts were removed? Cold temps could easily have created higher than normal pressures. Perhaps an electric "snuggy" or warm lightbulb for the scooter?
Post up what you find, if anything, inside the filter. Likely nuttin'.
Monte
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Barry,
I agree with monte, there's been lots of talk regarding this subject on the ABC LIST in the past and there's some comments saying this really does look worse than it is regarding any resulting engine damage. But still a good idea to check the canister depth carefully for proper filter compression and always use BMW OEM filters. These are items that are important enough where a dollar saved is not necessarilly a good idea. You'll find lots of different ways of doing it, I believe Oak has his percent procedure and formula (I have it somewhere, if you need it let me know and I'll hunt it down) or you can use Anton's chart which is also great...
http://www.largiader.com/tech/filters/canister.html
Probably a good idea to do a thorough inspection of the filter element by cutting it away from the housing. Bum has instructions on his site. I find myself doing this now after every filter change, it just makes better sence than just throwing the filter out and not knowing if something is going wrong.
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Thanks guys
Good new is there was very little on the filter element 2 or 3 very small bits of metal no more and maybe less than last time when I stripped and inspected the filter. I did measure the canister depth last time too but got something wrong .
After reading Snowbum and Anton Largiader yet again to make sure I get it right this time I've come to this simple conclusion
The O ring must be under enough but not too much compression in the range 0.2 - 0.8mm
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you must measure your own gasket and O ring thickness which may differ from Antons Figures.
My gasket was thicker and O ring thinner than I had assumed.
I had 3 new filters on the shelf 2 of which are the same make and they are all different lengths varying by upto 2mm.
By trial assembly without the O ring in place I have concluded that the ideal length including end seals is 129.5 mm but this would be 0.55 mm less if the gasket was not used! This really does suggest that OEM filters maybe best.
Here's my simple speadsheet for calculating the O ring compression.
My canister depth is 3.0 mm so I do need the gasket and have fitted it his time.
(http://)
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How consistent are the lengths of the rubber 'tube' type seals, at each end of the oil filter ?
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Bob
The rubber seals were all the same length even from different makes of filter. It was the canister length that varied probably due to the amount of bonding material used at the end caps.
2 of these filters came with a job lot of new spares I got off ebay which at the time seemed good value. I got a set of genuine points, 4 sparkplugs, a set of brake pads and 2 oil filters for £12 so Im not out of pocket if I trash the filters.
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A search on the Airheads list has turned up a few things worth sharing :-
This doesn't just happen to none OEM filters there were several examples of genuine BMW filters having collapsed including more than one example of a BMW bendy filter.
Possible causes suggested were failure to prime the oil filter cavity before starting (not guilty) and excessive revs with cold oil (I keep below 4000 rpm but that's enough to produce 120 psi oil pressure according to one poster).
Thought you might want see a final picture... sleep well, odds are yours is not like this.(http://)
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Barry,
Good stuff. I never thought to measure the new shims and o-rings out of the box. (Duh) Thanks for the heads-up and chart.
Don't forget to always use the metal shim on sharp canisters to protect the o-ring. I believe the rounded canisters started in the mid to late 80's. Don't know of a definate date on that.
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Well this is scary!
I have NEVER primed the filter cavity on an oil change. I don't recall seeing anything in the owners manual about it. I could easily be wrong.
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I got into the habit with all of my vehicles about 30 years ago, to operate the starter, until the low oil pressure light extinguishes, after an oil and filter change .
Usually remove the fuse for ignition, or in the case of the R65, remove the spark plug leads, and put an old set of plugs into the leads, and put the plugs on the cylinders, and operate the starter .
Don't know if it has made a difference or not !!
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Bob,
I'm assuming that's a good practice of priming - I do the same and have never experienced a collapsed filter...yet. That picture is a bit frightening.
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I should keep the scary filter tube as a reminder to be careful with a cold engine. For a long time I kept the remains of a pair of big end bearing shells that got friction welded to the crankshaft. Drove the car home very slowly for 15 miles with the bearing being the outside of the shells rotating inside the con rod. If I remember it only cost £5 to have the con rod faced and rebored (1974 prices).
I've always primed the oil filters on any vehicle out of mechanical sympathy for the bearings.
The additional issue here is the possibility of hydraulic shock to the filter
You know what it's like when you have air in a hose pipe and then the water suddenly comes through... so better to prime it at low starter speeds than with the engine running.
I still think the underlying cause was excessive compression of the filter which kinked the pleats. we are so obsessed with the 2000$ O ring that we forget that the filter itself has to fit.
The engine seems fine. I've used it twice this week and no strange noises of any kind. This weekend I might lie it over on the left side and remove the filter cover to check its OK. Shouldn't loose much oil if any.
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If anyone is having nightmares after seeing my scary filter tube I can confirm that it's possible to inspect the filter in
5 mins flat.
With a couple of 1" planks under the wheels and the bike on the side stand it leans over a little more than usual. It's then possible to remove the filter cover, inspect the filter and replace the cover for the loss of only a few cc's of oil and nothing much disturbed as the metal shim stays put and the 2000$ O ring remains in place on the cover.
I didn't remove the filter just shone a small torch down the centre tube to check all was well. The fact that the filter cover gasket came off bone dry also suggests the O ring was doing it's job.
I'm happy. The sight of clean oil in an engine is a wonderful thing. I may just have to change the oil and filter in the car tomorrow.
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Speaking of clean oil, some of the old-timers of airheads would only change the filter every-other oil change.
I'm too anal for that, myself...
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From today's Airhead Beemer Club Digest:
"Subject: Squished oil filter
On my much delayed oil change yesterday, after about 4.000 miles I found to my surprise a squished oil filter as if it had been flattened toward the middle. Do....co ABC#xxxxx San Jose"
Answers: 1)Spring for the extra dough and use an OEM hinged filter. 2) cold start on cold morning with thick oil and a high rev too soon=massive pressure. A hinged filter is just far stronger than the one piece type and the easy way to reduce such risk.
Looks like we're ahead of the ABC's power curve here at R65.org. We even have pictures. We love pictures![smiley=thumbsup.gif]
Monte
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I just keep wondering what set of circumstances come together, to cause the filter to collapse ?
Is it operator technique, 'heavy' throttle usage with a cold engine ?
Improper oil viscosity for the temperature ?
Pressure relief valve in the filter cavity not opening ?
Not that I ride in what many would consider 'winter' weather, my R65 sits out in temps around 32 F. (0C) with 20w50 oil, and I've never had an issue with filters, hinged, or the original straight type in 29 years of operating it .
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Monte,
I saw that also this morning, almost responded with the forum photos. Seems like the majority of the collapsed oil filter victims are using non-OEM filters.
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Very similar circumstances to mine - Hiflo brand filter and no cover gasket which means like me he may have put excessive axial pressure on the filter and stressed it a little making it more predisposed to being flattened by high oil pressure.
I have had a thought about the likely cold oil and too many revs scenario. When I leave school for home in the evening I have to climb a hill straight after pulling out of the gate. Several times when I left at sub zero deg C temperatures this winter I was forced to change down and briefly rev to 4500 rpm possibly a touch more because the cold engine wouldn't pull in the higher gear. My guess is this is when it happened. I always "warm" the engine for a minute or 2 before leaving but that is not going to do much for oil temperature. I know to be more careful next winter.
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Monte,
I saw that also this morning, almost responded with the forum photos. Seems like the majority of the collapsed oil filter victims are using non-OEM filters.
...and I read your article in the latest AIRMAIL newsletter regarding your X-country visit to the snowy but well attended Pennsylvania Airheads Tech Days. Nicely done. Monte
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Monte,
I saw that also this morning, almost responded with the forum photos. Seems like the majority of the collapsed oil filter victims are using non-OEM filters.
...and I read your article in the latest AIRMAIL newsletter regarding your X-country visit to the snowy but well attended Pennsylvania Airheads Tech Days. Nicely done. Monte
Congratulations, Mike! I don't doubt you had some competition on coverage! [smiley=thumbup.gif]
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Did you guys notice that Rand Rassmason has an article again this month? I think that makes three in a row. He doesn't always mention it in his articles but he rides an R65.
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Hum... We seem to have a few Airhead Beemer Club members 'round here! Coolness.
Monte
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I wanted to share Oak's percentage formula with all those who aren't aware of it. It's a pretty simple formula based on a target 10% to 25% O-ring compression. From an old Airmail Airtech article titled "$2000 O-Ring Revisited - Critical Installation Criteria". Oak's formula works well for me and is nice and simple when you wrap your head around it.
Basically...
O-ring + shim - cover gasket (if used) - measured cannister depth / O-ring x 100 = % O-ring Compression. Target is 10 % to 25%.
Here's my numbers plugged in from my 81 R65,
4.0 + 0.3 -3.6 / 4.0 x 100 = 17.5% (no cover gasket used)
Constants:
O-ring = 4.0 mm
Shim = 0.3 mm
Cover Gasket = 0.5 mm
As Oak states in the article "if less than 10% or more than 25% adjustments are needed. Different trials can be made with more shims or the use of the cover gasket.
As a reminder; always use a precision depth gauge when measuring your cannister depth and a good idea to check your new shim, gasket and O-ring thickness as I learned to do thanks to Barry. A check with new filter parts in the box revealed the above values to be in conformance with my measurements.
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;D ;D ;D Well...
...Now that Mike Valenti has ridden coast-to-coast just for the PA Tech Daze and has also gone totally "techy" on us, I kinda think we should bestow a new "handle" on our friend. I propose "West Coast Oak". Whatcha y'all tink? [smiley=ROTFLMAO.gif]
Keep up the good stuff Mike, uh, West Coast Oak. We need your experience and sense of humor. [smiley=thumbsup.gif]
Monte
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Thanks Mike
That gives me 14% compression with the cover gasket - nicely in the target area.
Without the cover gasket I previously had 33%
When you do the calcs Oak is effectively saying for a 4mm O ring compress it by .4mm to 1.0mm (10% - 25%)
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I kinda think we should bestow a new "handle" on our friend. I propose "West Coast Oak".
You're a hoot Monte, I think we're better off leaving the tech stuff to Bob, Rob, Barry and many others. When I get past simple arithmetic we can talk. Besides, I'm afraid that would be degrading Oak.
"Grasshopper the student"
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The only technical stuff I know is what I've learned working on my own bike. I am useless working on a big twin. I've never worked on a BMW electronic ignition, either. I am pretty uncomfortable working on other people's bikes if I am the "most experienced" one in the room. That makes me nervous. But I am happy to share what I have learned over the last 30 years! But anything important should be verified!!!