The New And Improved Unofficial R65 Forum V2
Technical Discussion => BMW Technical Q&A, Primarily R65 => Topic started by: MultiplexMan on December 23, 2009, 04:17:05 PM
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Hi,
Does anyone have any experience running NGK Iridium spark plugs in their R65?
They work a treat in the W650 - so worth an ask ;)
Cheers, MM
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Cost more, for sure. I run plain ol' airhead simple NGK's in both my R65s but some prefer the plain ol' airhead simple Bosch. Monte
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Yes ,Have been running them in my 83 R65 for 5 years now.Love em.
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Yes. BPR7EIX - I run them with the 0 ohm ngk spark caps. Work great. They have been in for a long time... (25,000 miles)
The part number on the NGK 0 ohm caps is LZFW.
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I'm running the Iridium plugs in all the airheads. It really made a difference in kickstarting the /2 with magneto ignition.
In my opinion they are worth the price. YMMV
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What kind of prices, are we talking about for the sparkplugs ?
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I think they are about 8 bucks a pop these days. I'm about to bead blast the rust off the outside of mine.
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I had Bosch Platinum plugs in the '81 R65, and they didn't like the wasted spark ignition system, the center electrode eroded to about .080 inches (2mm) below the insulator tip, after only 8-9,000 miles .
Just curious, if these plugs exhibited the same 'behavior' .
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Yes Bob, I have had the NGK Iridiums in for almost 20,000 miles, with a brown Dyna Coil.Have had no electrode errosion at all.The gap seems to stay the same as when I first initially gapped and installed them.I paid $10.00 a piece off Ebay.But well worth the extra $$$.I wouldn't run anything else.
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Yes.BPR7EIX - I run them with the 0 ohm ngk spark caps.
I guess you are using 0 ohm plug caps because they are resistor plugs.
Does anyone know if iridium plugs are available as a non-resistor type.
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The BMW has a single coil and waste spark - that means one plug jumps from centre electrode to earth,the other from side to centre.So you need double plat,or one with plat centre,the other with plat earth.
I use Bosch Plus 4 - they last just as long as a plat or iridium.
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Thanks for all the replies. I guess I'll be trying some Iridiums.
I'm working my way through ALL the posts before I ask the obvious - leads, coils, diode box, alternator questions ::)
Cheers, MM
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BPR7EIX - I run them with the 0 ohm ngk spark caps.
Which are the 0 ohm NGK caps; the red ones or the black ones?
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They are both black!
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Physically, you can't tell them apart, for what I can see .
Need to put a multimeter on one to tell for sure .
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They can red or black for the same value. I was going to say look at the ref' :-
LB05F would be 5k ohms but as Bob says you have to measure the resistance as there is no indication on the cap itself.
Mine are red and measure 5.0k spot on.
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OK here is a picture. The 5k ohm has a longer shaft that contains the resistance element and also has the raised section with "NGK" embossed on top.
The 0 ohm has a shorter high tension lead connection with the letters "NGK" raised alone. In the picture it is the one connected to the wire. BTW there is no erosion of the iridium tip after 30,000 miles. Now the out side needs some attention tho.....
(https://bmwr65.org/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi201.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Faa12%2FSemper_Gumby%2F20100109Sparkys.jpg&hash=5ddb55b87379438380e4c2f91126661989ab2f18)
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Alright, I learned something today, so the day hasn't been a total loss .
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Well I've never seen red caps but that doesn't mean they aren't out there! 8-)
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Did you get the non-resistor caps from a local source, or did you have to order them online, etc. ?
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My local motorcycle shop ordered them out of their supplyer's catelog. Took some pointing by me to get them to order the right part. They didn't understand that there was a 0 ohm sparky. Having the correct part number should have been enough but....
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Well I've never seen red caps but that doesn't mean they aren't out there!
NGK call them red, reddish brown would be a better description so they are not to bright and they fade to brown as you can see. Here is a link that gives full details of NGK's range of plug caps.
http://www.ngkpartfinder.co.uk/files/NGK_Spark_Plug_Covers.pdf
Sun glasses not required :)
(http://)
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Well I'll be. Hey that looks like a resistor cap though. It's got the longer shaft.
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Sun glasses not required :)
(http://)
I'd never trust anyone with an engine, or a house, that clean! [smiley=thumbsup.gif]
Where ARE those shades of mine? Monte
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Sun glasses not required :)
I keep telling you guys that the camera always flatters. [smiley=camera_sm.jpg]
What I meant was you wouldn't be needing sunglasses for a bright red plug cap. :)
Strange that this red colour seems so unusual over there. It was quite a common colour for electrical bits like distributor caps on old cars. Perhaps mimicking when they were made from Bakelite.
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Yes.BPR7EIX - I run them with the 0 ohm ngk spark caps.
I guess you are using 0 ohm plug caps because they are resistor plugs.
I can't find any NGK data to suggest that these are resistor plugs so shouldn't they be run using resistor caps?
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BPR7EIX
The R in a spark plug code indicates it's a resistor plug so your right to run with 0 ohm caps.
B = 14mm thread
P = Projected nose
R = Resistor
7 = Heat range
E = 19mm thread reach
IX= Fine wire Iridium electrode
(http://)
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Barry
As I have considered putting some of these plugs in mine this spring what happens if you have resistor plugs and resistor caps?
Thx
Steve
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Well there is no short and complete answer on this one.
The theory goes that excessive resistance will rob the spark of a little energy so it is not a recommended combination if your still running points ignition on your 1980 which is a more marginal system than the later electronic ignition. Below something I've got on file. Also Snowbum has some wise words on this topic:- http://bmwmotorcycletech.info/sparkplugs.htm
RESISTOR PLUGS
What are Resistor Plugs? Well by now you might have realised that the major part of the resistance in the F Plug/Coil system is provided by the Plug Cap. Some bikes use Resistor Plugs, so another solution could be to just have a 0kohm Cap and Run Resistor Plugs in your bike, but not both!
· MPG on my R80G/S went up about 10% when I realized I was running resistor plugs AND resistor caps and changed to zero Ohm caps. DOH!
· NGK do make a resistor plug, the NGK DR8EA. The OEM cap was 1kohm. Substituting a 5kohm cap is probably OK. A 0kohm cap without using a resistor plug like the DR8EA is NOT OK. If you use anything (but) more than 5k, you'll probably get less spark than you would with 5k due to impedance mismatch. But using 10k would probably be just fine in practice. But for good fuel economy DON'T use both a resistor cap AND a resistor plug. In other words, I don't think it really matters all that much one way or the other as far as making the bike run. Economy might suffer slightly. But would you really notice?
· I may be way off base, but I thought the resistor in the stock plug caps performed the same function as an "R" type plug. True? If so, adding an "R" plug would simply be adding more resistance
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Electrics have never been my forte, more of a mechanical type.
Thanks for the advice!
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I'm just guessing but I thought the reason for resitor plugs/caps was to cut down on Radio Frequency Interference. So you go with either a resitor plug or a resitor cap and only use both if you need them.
How would you know if you need them (One or both)?
My 1969 BSA Firebird is a case in point. WHile I don't have an AM radio on the bike I DO have a GArmin GPS. As bike RPM increases I noticed that the GPS would stop recieving Satillites. In fact at 5200 rpms it would stop recieving them completely and go blind. I changed the plugs from B7ES to BR7ES and WALA the GPS is happy again. If I needed more RF supression then it would have been obvious in the gPS's satilitte reception and I would have then added the caps.
I wanted to put on the Iridium plugs because they are fine wire plugs that last a really LONG time. For some reason the fine wire plugs just work better. The bike starts easier in extreme conditions (Like 18'F) for a long time without much effort from me. I was afraid that with both the resitor cap and the resitor plug I would loose some spark. (No evidence yet but perhaps I will check this out somehow with a testor).
So in my book its 1) GO with the resistor plug (preferably Iridium fine wire) first and then if you need more resistance 2) add the resistor caps last.
My 2 cents. (Not what it used to be)
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Some resistance is needed for radio suppression. The reason it works is complex, essentially it reduces the harmonics caused by sharp spikes in the voltage waveform.
The effect of resistance on the spark energy is also complex. Some will say that 10K ohms resistance is insignificant compared with the infinite resistance of the spark plug gap, therefore a spark will be initiated just as easily as with no resistance in the plug or lead. This may be true but once the spark is initiated the plasma in the spark gap has a resistance very much lower than infinity and simple ohms law tells us that if a current is passed through two resistors in series then energy is dissipated in proportion to the resistor values. In other words resistors placed in the plug or lead will dissipate energy which would otherwise be dissipated in the spark. Whether this has any practical effect on the engine running is the real question. Using iridium plugs may offset any tendency to a weaker spark because a spark is more easily emitted from a sharp edge or point. Same principle as a lightning conductor.
This is a compromise between the resistance needed to provide efficient radio suppression without too much detriment to the spark.
What is certain is that points ignition is less tolerant of excessive resistance so personally I would use the minimum required for radio suppression. BMW knew what they were doing when they designed the points system to use 1K ohm caps.
The short answer is that Snowbum says 1k ohms for points and 5K ohms for electronic ignition which fits nicely with a scientific paper I read which in summary said 5K ohms is enough for radio interference suppression and this would reduce the spark energy by 7 %. The paper also said that 6k ohms was typically used in Resistor type plugs although some were as high as 10K ohms. So add a 5K ohm plug cap and you have 15K ohms or 21% loss of spark energy. The engine may still run fine but with what safety margin ?
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OK Now I'm going to go out in the shed (tomorrow when its warmer) pull a plug and measure the resistance of the NGK BR7EIX. Inquiring minds need to know. :D
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Resistance doesn't effect the KV required to jump the plug gap....but it does reduce the burn time.
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Resistance doesn't effect the KV required to jump the plug gap....but it does reduce the burn time.
You condensed most of my last post into one sentence. I said less spark energy but yes that means a shorter spark burn time.
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NGK BR8EIX (That I use in the BSA's) 4680 ohms or about 5k (Using fuzzy logic). OAT 46'F.
I bet the restance of the BPR7eix is similar. I wonder if it changes with temperature. ::)
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Approx 5K ohms seems to be the optimum resistance value and it's good that they are not using a higher value resistor. It may make them the plug of choice if you must have a resistor plug. I'll try and find out what value other manufacturers are using.
Here is a quote from the NGK website:-
"NGK "R" or resistor spark plugs use a 5k ohm ceramic resistor in the spark plug to suppress ignition noise generated during sparking.
NGK strongly recommends using resistor spark plugs in any vehicle that uses on-board computer systems to monitor or control engine performance. This is because resistor spark plugs reduce electromagnetic interference with on-board electronics.
They are also recommended on any vehicle that has other on-board electronic systems such as engine-management computers, two-way radios, GPS systems, depth finders or whenever recommended by the manufacturer."
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OK....now that I've read all of the replies to this ongoing question...and am thoroughly confused as to what the right answer to the original question was...
SO...it's OK??? to run a resistor Iridium plug on my 81R65... I do use a GPS and understand that it will stop the RF interference. BUT...I've also read that running a resistor plug will mess up/ruin my starting system because it was made for non-resistor plugs.
A resistor plug runs hotter...correct? So the Iridium plug will dissipate the heat faster being a fine wire?
Sorry for the confusion...a definitive answer would be appreciated.. I'm not an electrician and am easily confused...probably from the era I grew up in.
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Electronic ignition bikes must have some some resistance in the lead or plug otherwise the ignition can be damaged. Points bikes should have 1K ohm resistor plug caps but many people run ok with 5K ohms caps.
You should not run resistor plugs and resistor caps together as some energy is dissipated in the resistors and it will weaken the spark especially so on the points bikes. You are more likely to get away with it on bikes with electronic ignition.
Resistors have no effect on running temperature that I know of.
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If you want to install resistor type spark plugs, you need to have ignition wires that are non-resistor type .
On our bikes, the cap that fits onto the spark plug, has the 5K resistor in it .
You can find 0 ohm caps by NGK, and then install them on your existing spark plug wires .
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<snip>
You can find 0 ohm caps by NGK, and then install them on your existing spark plug wires .
...just make sure you use the resistor plugs if you use the 0 ohm caps.
I chose the BR7EIX plugs because that was the only way to get a fine wire plug. They don't come in a non-resistor plug that I know of. I just didn't want too much resistance in the total equation (resistor plugs and resistor caps).