The New And Improved Unofficial R65 Forum V2
Technical Discussion => BMW Technical Q&A, Primarily R65 => Topic started by: proctorls on November 21, 2009, 07:32:06 PM
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I removed the air injection system on my '84 R65LS. All was well until a couple nights ago when I shed the right-head plug. I thought I had split a header pipe, but after I got the bike into a parking lot and up on the center stand, with the help of a flashlight I soon found the hole. I had stopped as soon as I heard the racket, so I walked back and found the plug a few yards up the street. I picked up a new crush washer at a local shop that serves airhead riders. Now the question:
How much should I torque the plug so it doesn't fall out. I assume that because of the temperature, Loc-Tite won't help.
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How hot do our heads get?
This high-temp Loctite is good up to 400 degrees F.
http://www.jcwhitney.com/jcwhitney/product.jcw?nval=1101024324&statenval=1101024324&productId=2019803&skuId=521966&shopid=100001&pageid=13&TID=8014524F&utm_source=Google_Product_Search&utm_medium=CSE&utm_content=product-446551&zmam=73771597&zmas=21&zmac=122&zmap=446551
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Being that it is near the exhaust pipe, the metal in that area (or the end of the bolt screwed into it and exposed to exhaust stream) I think will go over 400 degrees.
Personally, I don't think that you want this to be super-stuck in there. But over torquing can strip the threads and basically make it non-removable - or at least. non-re-installable if removed after being stripped. Some folks are happy to make them a "semi-permanent" installation, though. I'd put a little schmeer of high temp anti-seize and re-install, snugging it up just a bit more than you did before and see how it goes.
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Well now, after 50 years and more driving motorcycles (cars too) this is the first time I've heard of a spark plug falling out. Have I led a sheltered life? Or am I now going to learn something new? My own experience is that spark plugs don't need to be done up particularly tight at all. And a bit of copper grease on the thread helps removal.
Until recently I had a Ural twin which had alloy heads but (surprisingly) used short-reach plugs - even those never fell out.
It's true that on the R65 I bought 6 months ago, the spark plugs seemed to have been screwed down by a gorilla plus the threads were dry. I got quite worried for my cylinders heads but the plugs moved in the end. Does it mean airheads are unusually likely to lose spark plugs? Did the gorilla know more than I do? My old R 60/5 had plenty of problems but lost spark plugs were not one of them.
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Hey hey I just re-read Steve's posting, I think I made a mistake....he didn't mean spark plugs but something on an air injection system, something I'm not familiar with at all. Is it one of those "secondary air" things which don't reduce the polluting gases, just dilute them in the exhaust - their only purpose is to get a vehicle through the type-approval emissions test.
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Hey hey I just re-read Steve's posting, I think I made a mistake....he didn't mean spark plugs but something on an air injection system, something I'm not familiar with at all. Is it one of those "secondary air" things which don't reduce the polluting gases, just dilute them in the exhaust - their only purpose is to get a vehicle through the type-approval emissions test.
Thats something BM did to apease the flower pickers in America not something found on UK bikes we like Hydrocarbons in the morning smells like..... Victory
Lou
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A picture for those not familiar:
(https://bmwr65.org/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.pbase.com%2Ftomfarr%2Fimage%2F68519271%2Fmedium.jpg&hash=6a6812909e371ab54f49d6e84871b30fc7c4a84c)
This is the right-hand cylinder, seen from the front, below.
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Thats something BM did to apease the flower pickers in America not something found on UK bikes we like Hydrocarbons in the morning smells like..... Victory Lou
IIRC, Lou, the BMW "air injection" system was added to primarily appease the California pickers -flowers, nose, butt... whatever.
Rather than building fences along the USA's southern border, we're more concerned with putting up a fence around California. They done liberalized and socialized themselves into bankruptcy so we gotta watch out for them Californicators disguising themselves as Mexicans as they try to slip into the lower 47... Current CA R65.org members excluded, of course. ;)
Monte
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Nice one Monte...Califoricators ive learned a new word are these the same Flower Pickers who buried the electric car in favour of subsidized Hummers ??
Lou
Please accept my apologise to the NPFAA(Not Picking Flowers in America Association) especially the Texas Delegates i didnt mean to imply that all Americans pick flowers.
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I look at flowers but I don't pick them, until they're ripe apples or such.
Anybody who's ever experienced the misfortune of driving in southern California and seen the sheer number of vehicles on the road would understand the need to make sure those rigs burn as cleanly as possible. The air injection system doesn't just dilute the exhaust, but the oxygen in it helps burn up any residual hydrocarbons left in the exhaust.
I can just imagine the smog if all those cars and trucks down there had the same kind of emissions as my '58 Chevy pickup. On the other hand, so many people would die from it that the numbers of vehicles on the road would drop. Maybe it would be OK.
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I would rather hug trees than pick flowers.
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...On the other hand, so many people would die from it that the numbers of vehicles on the road would drop. Maybe it would be OK.
Cousin Ed, I believe you just may be onto something there. ;D
LA and Phoenix are both situated in geographical bowls surrounded by mountains that trap the air and prevent it from moving out of the toilet bowl of Southern CA. Phoenix used to be know as the Valley of the Sun. Nowadays, you can't often get a clear view of the sun for all the smog. Riding or flying into Denver's northern approach is little better.
And yes, my fair village suffers poor air quality on occasion due to the metromess of DFW just 30-odd mikes to our south. That's why my bride and I are building a new home and a proper Man Cave northwest of this airborne crap.
Monte
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[/quote]
And yes, my fair village suffers poor air quality on occasion due to the metromess of DFW just 30-odd mikes to our south. That's why my bride and I are building a new home and a proper Man Cave northwest of this airborne crap.
Monte
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You moving to Alaska??
Lou
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You moving to Alaska?? Lou
Not quite, Lou. I absolutely hate cold weather. Wife, too. Besides, I wouldn't live anywhere north of the Red River.
No, just about 60 miles northwest which will get us out of the usual southerly air stream that moves the crappy air up from Dallas and Fort Worth to my house.
Our cars have to undergo the annual emissions checks due to the Dallas air. Move DFW away and we would not be subject to this additional tax.
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To answer the original question.
Torque is about 20-25 foot pounds. Provided the threads in the head have not been galled. Tightening while the head is warm is recommended as well as using Red loctite.
rich
who runs the complete air system in perfect working order on his bike 'cus he likes flowers, trees, breathing and such so acts accordingly.
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(https://bmwr65.org/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.bmwr65.org%2Fhtdocs%2Fyabbfiles%2FAttachments%2Fthreaddirection9xa.gif&hash=d7fc56b8a29dca08953a29f99d85157a00755214)
Yeah, I was about to split this off to 'Chat'......
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As usual, the Snowbum site has an extensive treatise on the removal of the misnamed "air injection system"... which is really not.
My 81 has a crude but effective method of hardware elimination; very short lengths of the metal piping near the system's anchor nut at the head are simply welded shut. At the head, the original hardware is retained.
The '83 still has the Mickey Mouse gear but it, too, will soon be added to the trash can.
Monte
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I torque the crap out of 'em with a new crush washer - never barfed one. Constellation, I did have a Nissan pickup that barfed the center out of a Bosch Platinum spark plug! Made a helluva racket until I got home...
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I had a Mazda 323 that spit a spark plug once. Hell of a racket, and a drastic reduction in power!
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So what is the preferred method to plug the hole? In Rob's picture it looks like just an allen head cap screw? Anyone know what size? Thx
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It is a metric drain plug from an oilhead model engine - a perfect fit for this application and used by most people who plug these ports.
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<snip> Now the question:
How much should I torque the plug so it doesn't fall out. I assume that because of the temperature, Loc-Tite won't help.
To answer your question Steve...The plug is about the same size as a Spark plug so I think you are safe with about 20 nm (not ft-lbs) on your torque wrench. As to which lock tite you should use..doesn't Locktite have a website. I would check there or go to NAPA and ask.
Good luck.
BTW - I didn't use Locktite on mine when I did it 5 years ago...just the crush washer.
Take your pick from here...
http://www.henkelna.com/cps/rde/xchg/henkel_us/hs.xsl/product-search-1554.htm?param1=subsubapplicationRedDotUID=|subapplicationRedDotUID=00000002IP|applicationRedDotUID=0000000276|advanced=|brandRedDotUID=________________0000000389|pageIndex=0|action=search|
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It's an Oilhead drain plug and crush washer. Torque it real good and then give it another grunt after a heat-cycle and you should be good.
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I didn't see it mentioned, but the rubber cover for the timing opening will also fit to plug the two holes in the airbox that remain after removal of that end of the plumbing. I used black silicone to seal them in place. Ted Porter's Beemershop sells a kit with the oilhead drain plugs and the timing covers for very little money.
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Is that the one with the magnetic plug for the main engine oil. Never understood why the r65 didn't have this...
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I don't think so, tho he may sell that separately. The kit I'm talking about is just to plug up the emissions plumbing.
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I have a 1987 R65 that still has the air-injection system intact. Should I leave it on, or do I take it off. Is there a performance advantage or is it just to shed some pounds off the bike?? Any fuel mileage advantage? [smiley=bmw_smiley.gif]
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You will not gain any performance or fuel mileage .
All the system does, is introduce additional air into the exhaust, to continue burning any fuel that remains in the exhaust gas, before exiting the exhaust system .
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I pulled mine on my 1980 because it made an anoying popping sound which I could not stand. Still have the bits though...
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If the 'snorkel' valves in the airbox start getting gummed up or generally just not opening/closing properly, this will cause popping (esp. under deceleration) as they are supposed to close and not push more air into the exhaust under those conditions.. but when they do, the air does ignite the richer gas mixture still in the exhaust stream. I am going to leave mine on until they start having this issue before removing.
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Hmm...I suppose you could just soak 'em to get them cleaned. Then you could keep them on without the popping.
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If the 'snorkel' valves in the airbox ...
Valves plural? You're referencing the "duck lips" in the lower aft area of the airbox? Both my R65s have only one kazoo whistle. You aren't talking about the twin snorkle-like tubes above the air filter? Monte
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It is a metric drain plug from an oilhead model engine - a perfect fit for this application and used by most people who plug these ports.
I just recently removed the "air" fittings from the eBay-sourced R65 heads. An hour or so soaking in PB Blaster and they came away smoothly. Whew.
Gotta be Oilhead drain plugs? Engine or trans or all same all?
Monte
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It can be off of any bike, as long as the plug diameter and thread match .
I plugged mine in 1983, with aircraft hardware plugs, it must be one of those sizes, that metric, and 'American' sizes match, or least close enough to work .
Like the screws for the carb tops, it's close enough, for a 10-32 screw will work as well .
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If the 'snorkel' valves in the airbox ...
Valves plural? You're referencing the "duck lips" in the lower aft area of the airbox? Both my R65s have only one kazoo whistle. You aren't talking about the twin snorkle-like tubes above the air filter? Monte
That's not what he means. I don't know the correct name, though. The little vacuum line that goes up from each carb to a T in the air box actuates a pair of valves in the pulsed air system, shutting it off when a vacuum is detected. When you let off the gas or are coasting down a hill in gear the vacuum is high enough to do this, and it stops (or reduces, anyway) the popping.
You can use a Mity Max vacuum pump applied to the carb line (pinch the one on the other side, or you'll just suck air through that carb) to test if they are working.
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Can anyone post the part numbers to the parts one would need to remove the Pulse air system
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Snowbum has all the info you need and more in his article on removing the system.
http://bmwmotorcycletech.info/pulseair.htm
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I picked up a set of these from sales@capitalcycle.com. Installed this weekend & they work great. Thanks for the tips from above.
ITEM# DESCRIPTION QTY TOTAL
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07119919117 OIL DRAIN PLUG 16x1.50 2 $5.70