The New And Improved Unofficial R65 Forum V2
Technical Discussion => BMW Technical Q&A, Primarily R65 => Topic started by: chewy4x4 on January 19, 2010, 01:05:23 AM
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Ok the bike has been sitting since the 15th of december but it has a new battery and I had just changed the starter because it was a hard start in dec. I got every thing changed and put back together and she wont crank that is to say it wont spin the fly wheel at all so I pull the new starter thinking doa and I put back the old one same crap. So now I need help please help this is my DD for school and I am with out tomorrow.
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Perhaps one of the more electrically savvy gurus could weigh in here, but isn't there a fuse in line somewhere in the starting circuit? I would check fuses first and if OK, then run a continuity check with a volt/ohm meter.
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Check the voltage at the battery.
Check the fusees (under the RH Side cover).
Look for something easy (disconnected) or pinched (under the top motor cover).
Are you getting indicator lights when you turn the ignition switch on? Check that the Ignition cutoff switch is on on the RH handle bar is on.
Check your wire connections. Start at the battery and go to the starter. Make sure your grounds are connected. OK you've got power to the starter solenoid. Jump the post on the starter solenoid and see if the starter will turns. Starter turns: trouble shoot the starter switch and make sure it is connected to the solenoid. Starter doesn't turn: pull the starter.
When you disconnect stuff - look for corrosion. If you see white or green stuff on your connectors or the connectors are discolored then sand the connector shinny and put back together with di-electric grease.
Good luck. Its there somewheres - you just gotta be persistent and find it.
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There's a starter relay under the fuel tank, normally it's got a yellow plastic cover .
With the tank removed, depress the start button with the key in the on position .
Does it click ?
If not, you can sometimes push on the top of the relay, and get the contacts inside to make contact, and the starter should rotate .
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Crap I think that both my starters are dead time to take them and bench test them. I have lights and everything. This bike has been garaged its whole life and there is no corrosion whatsoever on this bike. It looks new inside and out. Not even much dust under the bean can or starter cover. When I hit the start button the starter throw out engages but doesnt spin even when being jumped. Is there any reason or way to test that my flywheel is able to turn. I was riding this bike twice a week to and from Texas State about 100 miles a week. I parked it and whent on Vacation on the 15th of Dec and tried to start it for the first time yesterday. I had changed to the newer valeo starter and squat then bact to the bosch hit the botton click no crank.
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How old is your battery ?
Is it a serviceable type ?
If it is, remove the caps on cells, and see if there is any liquid visible .
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New battery done in Dec when the old one died and its clear so I can see in it its full
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Did you leave the fuel tap in the "ON" position ?
If you did, there's a chance the floats in one of the carbs didn't shut off, and you now have the possibility of 'hydraulic lock' in one of the cylinders .
Pull the plugs and see if a cylinder has fuel in it .
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Will check changed both spark plugs yesterday didnt notice anything or smell fuel. Is there away to remote mount a silinoid to the bosch starter? Maybe like off an old ford for the time being?
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Is there any reason or way to test that my flywheel is able to turn.
Remove the front engine cover (DISCONNECT THE BATTERY GROUND!).
Remove the spark plugs.
Put a allen key (I prefer my ratchet handle/allen socket) in the alternator rotor screw.
Turn the engine clockwise, looking at the engine from the front!
(I've heard it is not a good idea to turn our engines "backwards")
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Ok turned the engine as suggested no issues. Mated a remote starter selenoid to the r65 and wired it to the old bosch starter that is in and Click just one loud click while the bike was in the process of being jumped is it possible to mount the starter and not have the cogs mesh?
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I think you need to remove the starter from the bike, put it in a large vise with a few pieces of wood, and then use jumper cables, and see what it does .
Need to figure out whether it's a starter problem or not .
What was your original 'hard starting' problem?
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The original problem was that the starter would click like is is doing now but if i rolled back and kept trying tho start it would eventually crank I can pull the starter and test it this week end. Apperently Honda thinks the problem in the new starter is the starter itsself not the selenoid. I am starting tho think so also
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Chewy, did you ever get the starter to work?
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If you need to rebuild it try these guys.
They rebuilt my Bosch starter many years ago for not much money. It is still working.
http://www.sleepyhollowrebuilders.com/
Good luck
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Starter was sent back to euromotoelectrics and they tested it and said it was fine its on its way back to me now. I need to take the batery in and get it tested now. I need mor suggestions about what to check. Is there a relay between the starter and the battery that could be bad? Could a short be causing this. Is it possible to not install the started right?
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There's a starter relay under the fuel tank, normally it's got a yellow plastic cover .
With the tank removed, depress the start button with the key in the on position .
Does it click ?
If not, you can sometimes push on the top of the relay, and get the contacts inside to make contact, and the starter should rotate .
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Sorry Bob I missed that one some how I will try tomorrow.
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What if I have no yellow covers can I get a pic please
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I just looked at the LS, (it's got the tank off) .
On the right side of the 'backbone' tube, there's a large sheet metal bracket with two relays secured with screws at forward end of the bracket .
One of the relays should have a plastic case (the LS has a grey case) with a wiring schematic molded into the plastic case, and the other relay is a little shorter, and has a metal cover, it's the lighting relay, it's what shuts off the headlight when you use the starter .
The plastic case relay with the schematic, is the starter relay .
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On my 84 model the starter relay is the grey one next to the frame tube and behind the green flasher unit.
(The other extra relays are for my home made heavy duty headlight circuits.)
The fuse box is the Narva 4 blade fuse one that was discussed in an earlier thread.
The starter relay is a standard 30amp type that you will find on a lot of cars, you might be able to borrow one from a headlight or horn circuit to see if it's the problem.
Bruce
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Hey Bob, what time is it in Arizona, it's 11am Sunday in Tasmania?
With your excellent desciption and my photo Chewy shouldn't have any trouble finding his relay.
What a team!
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Currently, it's 1745 on Saturday .
I'm -7 hours GMT, we don't recognize any daylight savings time here in Arizona, except if you reside on some of the Native American (Indian) reservations in northeastern Arizona .
So, how's Sunday so far ???
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Going to be a hot one 30C, don't let anyone tell you that Tassie is the cold wet end of Australia.
We will be having a quiet one, my wife is struggling with a Uni assignment and my youngest son is flying up to Sydney this afternoon to start a new contract.
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Found it you guys rock. I need to go and see if autozone/checker/(insert favorite auto parts shop) has a similar one. I hope that does it. I am starting to lose my mind.
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Oh and bruce small worl my wife has only been in the US for 3 years now she is a native queenslander you was living in Nelsons bay NSW when we met.
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Chewy,
If you haven't run off yet, you can take the cover off of the relay, if it doesn't 'click' when the start button is depressed .
If the 'holding' coil of the relay is still good, you can 'adjust' the moving parts inside, if you are a bit gentle with them .
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Adjusted It still wont crank. I should have my new starter back tomorrow. I need to take the battery and have it tested. Its new if its bad Ill be angry.
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I don't even know what year bike we are talking about. >:(
The starter relay is the one with a red wire that is larger than the rest.
On the '78-'80, it is the metal cased one next to the large voltage regulator.
Ignore the one to the far left - that is for the 4-way flashers.
(https://bmwr65.org/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.pbase.com%2Ftomfarr%2Fimage%2F90927250%2Fmedium.jpg&hash=48db661f6a939b9b6a3165c7d87b4183f965ca3f)
If it is on a '81-'84, it is the rear-most relay, at least according to this picture someone here provided a long time ago.
(https://bmwr65.org/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.pbase.com%2Ftomfarr%2Fimage%2F90141401%2Foriginal.jpg&hash=daa717cb392d23b44015b776a7e70cea1c3bc11c)
Put your bike model/year in your signature line so we don't have to wonder. Mine is in my user name.
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Oh man I know better than to start a thread without specific details. Sorry. I have a 1981 R65 with less than 5500 original miles on it. I had been using it as a commuter twice a week since August. I parked it on Dec 15 and didn't try to start it until Jan 11. I had the fuel off and no trickle charge on it. I bought a bunch of suspension parts and a new starter to put in before going back to school. I couldn't get it to start even while jumping it. With both the old and the new batteries. I decided to change the starter because I could almost never start it if it was below 45 without a jump and after a weekend it took a lot of cranking to start it. I have a new battery in it(not a gel) and I have checked everything we have mentioned thus far. Save the battery which I am going to do tonight ( I hope).
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Ok so I have tested the battery and Its good. So on to new info I had said that I wired a ford remote solenoid to the R65. Well I was getting the same issue Press start..Click.. No crank. Well I wired the ford solidiod directly to the batttery and the starter using the start button as the start button and what I get is the starter imediatly spinning. I dont think its throwing the shaft out. Any suggestions I think I an going to wire up the stock solenoid in the same manner and see if that works.
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I have read of folks dismantling their starters and cleaning everything up with some success.
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New update: Ok I have got the bike to crank but It is to dangerous to comtinue on the same path. I need to know what symptoms I would have if my diode board quit. I got the starter to crank by attaching a hot wire directly from the battery to the starter solenoid and having the solenoid wired properly otherwise.
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If your diode board had a failure, your battery would not get charged.
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The only thing between the battery and the starter, is the large cable that bolts to the battery, the other end is at the starter .
Check the cable for obvious damage, corrosion, loose crimped on cable ends etc. .
How does the ground cable look, especially where it bolts up to the transmission, connections clean and tight ?
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Their is a red wire that is atached to the starter that goes out the front of the starter compartment and is attached to the board on the top of the compartment their it is a spade connection on the board and a ring on the starter.
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That's the output cable for power coming from the alternator diode board to the bikes electrical system .
The power from the alternator, goes to the starter, and with the other cable is connected to it at the starter, so when the starter is not working, the alternator power goes back to the battery on the large diameter black cable .
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Oh I have no power getting through that cable what do I do?
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I've only had my starter out once, and that was about 7 years ago, so I'm not real familiar with it's installation, is it a big job to get the cable out ?
Can you pull on one end, to see if it is still in one piece ?
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It is still in one piece its small I have to check the wire with a multimeter and I need to check that I am even getting power at the board end of the cable
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Are you talking about the red wire ?
The red wire is the power from the alternator, the other cable, should be a larger diameter black wire, about 5/16ths of an inch in diameter, that's the power from the battery .
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Ok I am in school today I will check all of the connections tonight and get back to you.
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Bob just reminded me of something very important, here.
Check underneath the insulation at the ends of your VERY BIG black wire, the one that runs from the positive terminal on the battery.
If either end of this cable shows signs of corrosion (nasty white stuff falling out), replace the cable.
Feel free to strip off the insulation and take a picture or two for us, if this is the case.
This condition will greatly reduce the amount of power getting from your battery to your starter.
Same with the ground cable. Apply some kind of grease to these connections when reassembling them. Dielectric grease is the preferred, but some say even Vaseline or bearing grease will work.
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I just did this with a friend's R90/6.
As soon as you put a load on the system it would die. (i.e. Not crank).
I isolated it to a bad hot wire between the diode board and the starter relay (not the solinoid). Th R65 is a bit different than the 1976 R90/6 though...
So start at the battery and trace the hot lead (Battery voltage 13.5 volts)from the battery to the starter solinoid and then from the red wire from the starter solinoid to the starter relay. The starter relay sends current through the black wire back to the starter solinoid to energize the starter. Make sure there is also 13.5 volts at the ignition switch red wire. Thats the heavy lifting part.
What makes the starter relay work is current from the ignition switch green wires. One of these green wires run up to the emergency stop switch and from there to the start switch. The output from the starter switch is green and white. It run straight back to the starter relay. When you press the start switch, you should be reading 13.5 volts at the green and white wire at the starter relay. It needs a ground though. The starter relay gets its ground though the brown and yellow wires. It has two ways to get to ground. The brown and yellow at the starter relay will connect to ground through either 1) the neutral switch or 2) the clutch switch.
So you can check for battery voltage on the supply side of the starter relay or check for grounds (continuity with the frame) on the output side of the starter relay (brown and yellow wires) by activating the cluct handle or putting the bike in neutral. Make sure that both grounds work.
Good luck.
BTW this whole dicussion was sussed by looking at Diagram 'L' for BMW motorcycles 1981 to 1984 R65.
If you want one of these really cool color diagrams I think you can email him at r75.7@mindspring.com or go to Prospero's Garage at www.slash5.com.
I got mine from somebody here at bmwR65.org but I forget who....
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Speaking of grounds (earths) (thank you Semper Gumby), I don't know how the main harness ground is set to attach to the frame on the 81-84 models, but on the early ones, it was attached to the front coil holder, and when the coil mount finally broke (they nearly ALL did!), you lost your main ground connection on the bike, and everything died.
YOU MUST HAVE GOOD CLEAN CONTACTS EVERYWHERE on this 29 year-old machine. Especially the grounds/earths.
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Starting with the '81 year bikes, the grounds, or earths, are all ganged together and secured to the frame, by a threaded piece of the frame, not likely to break .
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Ok upon closer inspection of my battery cable I noticed a bit of corrosion not a lot but what looked like some inside the sheathing on the starter end. I did peel back the black cover and yep there was more. It seems that the crip wasnt tight enough I am going to replace the cable today. Sorry no pictures as It was like 2300 when I was working on it. I have never seen corosion inside the sheathing but it is 29 years old. I hope thats all thats wrong. I got my new valeo starter back yesterday and I will be putting that on then trying to start it up again.
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I think you will notice a world of difference with a new cable.
I can't wait to find out if I am right!
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It lives!!!!!!! Rob you da man. And you da man Bob. And I can t forget my Tassie mate Bruce. I have a bike that now at least cranks. I now have to go back to by original task of changeing my starter. And I am wireing up a flasher system. Which will take me to my next thread.
Thanks yall!!
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I love it when I'm right! ;)
(https://bmwr65.org/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.buyersmls.com%2Famericantv%2Fateam%2FDaily%2520Radar%2520Feature%2520-%2520How%2520to%2520Catch%2520the%2520A-Team_files%2Fhan1.jpeg&hash=62f96b912c2ae2da6c0a7fd08b234df0bcfe56db)
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New starter in CHECK
New Battery cable Wired Up CHECK
Key in CHECK
Press Start .......CHECK
VROOOMMMMM............ [smiley=bmw_smiley.gif]
I love being back on the road even if it was only around the block at midnight. Thanks Again Yall
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So you must have a good parts source near by? Or did you get the cable at a auto parts store?
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New Autozone near my house just checked all of the cables they had I threw out the box or I would post the part number.
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Did ja get the dielectric grease, like I told you?
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No.....Damn it now I have to go back and fix that little issue.
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Did ja get the dielectric grease, like I told you?
Listen top your daddy, who loves you.
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On both ends of the main battery cables. And every other electrical contact you can get your hands on.
The fuses on these are prone to corrosion and intermittent behavior, as well.
You have a '81, so your fuse box is under the right/rear of the gas tank.
Check them. They are 8 amp fuses, and it is worthwhile to change the whole box for something using the spade-type automotive fuses. But, near as I know, those only come in 5 or 10 amp, in that range.
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...You have a '81, so your fuse box is under the right/rear of the gas tank.
Check them. They are 8 amp fuses, and it is worthwhile to change the whole box for something using the spade-type automotive fuses. But, near as I know, those only come in 5 or 10 amp, in that range.
I'm using the mini spade fuses in NAPA sourced enclosed fuse holders. Found some of the mini fuses in 7.5 amp so figure that's close enough.
Monte
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I'm using the mini spade fuses in NAPA sourced enclosed fuse holders. Found some of the mini fuses in 7.5 amp so figure that's close enough.
My thoughts exactly except I am going to try to fit the mini spades into the original box.