The New And Improved Unofficial R65 Forum V2
Technical Discussion => BMW Technical Q&A, Primarily R65 => Topic started by: BooG on November 03, 2009, 04:44:43 PM
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Bike got a good soaking today, and I went to start it up but could not. It turned over fine, and was biting a bit, firing but not starting. In the end I ran my Odessey P680 down. Never done that before and it actually performed valiantly during the failed start! Any wisdom from anyone as to why this might be the case?
I start up by applying full choke, pulling in clutch lever and applying a tiny bit of throttle as I turn it over. Usually starts. >:(
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Usually hard starting in wet, or damp conditions, points to the high voltage secondary circuit of the ignition system .
Ignition leads, or coil issues .
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Are you still running the OEM Bosch Crack-O-Matic coil? Gray and black. If the coil has tiny cracks, it is toast and will prevent regular starts even with a heavy dew on the scoot. Dyna coil... woohoo!
Monte
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According to his profile, it's an '80 model year bike, so I don't think it has the suspect dual output coil .
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I am surprised that you don't already know the answer to this one, Boo.
While looking for my posting (http://www.bmwr65.org/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1191053968/9#9) on NGK caps vs. OEM,
I scrolled up to see you commenting on the metal-cased plug caps, over two years ago!
What do you have on your bike?
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Well I still have the metal ones on!! OK then... I'll see about changing those suckers out and I'll check the coil info as well. Battery on charge. Thanks for responses.
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Have ordered all the bits to make my own leads and am gonna swap to the NGK caps as well. New NGK plugs as well.
The coils are the Bosch ones with the orange/Brown tops. Both sides are sparking, but weakly, and there was no bite at all when I tried to start today.
So, Dyna coil then....have looked at the various threads on installing and it seems straightforward enough. I'm right in thinking that it dosen't matter which lead goes into which terminal on the Dyna?
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So, Dyna coil then....have looked at the various threads on installing and it seems straightforward enough. I'm right in thinking that it dosen't matter which lead goes into which terminal on the Dyna?
Correct. The instruction sheet from Motorrad Elektrik explains all. http://www.motoelekt.com/index.html
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The Dyna coils, are not direct replacements for the OEM coils .
I don't know if you are going to install a single dual output coil, or two single output coils .
But adapter brackets of some sort will be required regardless which way you go .
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If you are still using points you will need the 12 volt 3 ohm Dyna coil with dual outputs I think that is the green one. A lower impeadance coil of the electronic ignition type will burn the points more quickly as they were not designed to handle the higher primary current resulting from the use of such a coil.
I'll be interested to see how a Dyna improves your spark as I'm still on the original twin 6 volt coils although I have fitted a points amplifier which improved the spark some and I currently have no problems.
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Anyone know how I go about hooking up the electrics from the old twin coils to the single dual output Dyna coil? I'm a bit rubbish with electrics.
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All you really need to do, is connect one set of wires to the terminals on the new coil .
It doesn't matter which way you connect them .
The other set of wires can have insulated tape put on the wire ends, and then ty-wrapped out of the way, or cut the terminal ends off, and put crimp-on caps on the wires .
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Connect the blue/green wire (Terminal 15 on your existing rear coil) to one terminal of your new coil and the two black wires (Terminal 1 on existing front coil) to the other terminal of your new coil.
The blue/green wire is the +ve feed from the ignition switch.
One of the black wires goes to the points and the other to the Tachometer.
The black/Yellow link wire between the two old coils is not required.
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Ok, just checking....its this coil I want, the Green DC6-1 with dual outputs and 3.0ohms primary resistance? If so, thats only £62.33p!
www.dynatek.com/sports_bikes_ignition_coils.html
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I drove this weekend 300km on rainy weather, and my R65 was fine... God bless the Dyna coil :)
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Ok, just checking....its this coil I want, the Green DC6-1 with dual outputs and 3.0ohms primary resistance? If so, thats only £62.33p!
www.dynatek.com/sports_bikes_ignition_coils.html
Bad link to the coil site .
If you have the contact breaker type ignition, you need the 'green' 3 ohm coil .
When I ordered a Dyna 'brown' coil for the '84 LS about 6 weeks ago, I asked Rick Jones, the owner of Motorrad Elektrik, what kind of service life to expect from a Dyna coil .
The response I got was 20+ years, he has had only 2 or 3 coils sent back to him, that had actually failed .
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Yes DC6-1 green is the right one
Couldn't get your link to work did you mean this one
http://www.dynatekuk.com/sport_bikes_ignition_coils.html
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If your twin 6v coils are original then after 30 years they probably need replacing (mine too when I get around to it) and Dyna coils are highly regarded. Just a thought though...
Looking back over this thread I noticed no one mentioned the condenser as a possible cause of your weak spark. Condensers are notoriously difficult to test except by substitution. One indicator of a faulty condenser is excessive sparking at the points or you could disconnect it and see if there is any difference in the spark strength. Disconnection is actually quite difficult come to think of it because the connection to the points is shared with the condenser so you would have to do a temporary bodge somehow to test it that way
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I'd completely forgotten about a faulty condenser, as I haven't worked on a vehicle with points type ignition, since 1981 ('79 Yamaha XS400) !!!!!
From what little I remember about the system, won't a faulty condenser, leave the points a bit blackened, or 'sooty' looking as well ?
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Come to think of it Bob until I got an airhead 3 years ago I'd forgotten about points too. I bought a new Suzuki in 1982 and rode it for 14 years without once even thinking about the ignition timing let alone adjusting it.
Yes I think a failing condenser would cause the points to burn from excessive arcing. There is a theory that with a perfectly matched condenser both points contacts will wear evenly. In the real world they always seem to develop a pip on one side or the other.
The other failure mode for the condenser would be for it to short out in which case the ignition would produce no spark at all.
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Yes, I agree with Barry - a faulty condensor can cause oddly worn/burnt points surfaces, or if it fails shorted, no spark at all. Given the usual failure rate of the original coils on these bikes, we do tend to always go there first. IT has been a long time since I've had to deal with any points too (though I hope to get back into it with a 1970s vintage airhead soon-ish) I used to replace the condensor with the points as a matter of habit - no sense in trying to pinch pennies when a bad condensor can ruin a new set of points and/or cause all sorts of hardships on the roadside.
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Bad condensors leave the point's contact pads with little "spikes" built up as metal is transfered from on contact to the other.
Monte
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Loads of great advice! Will be at work this weekend (as long as all the parts make it through the postal disruption!?), so I'll take some photos and let y'all know how I get on!
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So..bad weather has held me back somewhat..but finally I have managed to hook up all the bits! Dyna coil is on rear bracket. Its a different configuration to the ones I have seen. The intergral epoxy bracket was pre drilled with two holes (presumably for a Harley). I put another one next to the rear one to mount it. The wires have been extended (soldered/heat shrinked) along with ring type adapters to replace the old spade type. New HT leads and caps/plugs. A new set of points. They didn't actually look to bad, but I'm gonna stick another condenser in anyway as I have one. Battery earth cable remains in the same position as it was. There was a brown wire earthed to the front coil bracket. I have left it there. Not on schematic, so I was wondering...? Will go for the start up on Monday. Fingers crossed!
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That brown wire on the forward coil bracket, is a main ground, or earthing point for the electrical system .
It's a common problem, to have the metal bracket crack, and give all sorts of odd electrical problems .
Check it for cracks, while you've got it apart .
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It's a common problem, to have the metal bracket crack, and give all sorts of odd electrical problems .
This is the 1978-1980 models Bob refers to.
And on mine, when the mount broke, taking the front coil and the main ground with it, the bike died (due to the lack of ground).
I drilled a hole in the connector plate, and made my new ground point, there. (don't be shy with the dielectric grease)
The coil is held on with a couple of really big hose clamps, these days.
(https://bmwr65.org/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.pbase.com%2Ftomfarr%2Fimage%2F90927252%2Flarge.jpg&hash=c461e845de4ed38412fc1eb757d7f9cc581b72dd)
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Here it is so far! Belting down with rain at mo so no chance of a start up for the next hour or so.
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I've never noticed a main earth connection on my front coil bracket. Maybe a PO moved it some place else. I'll have to check.
Is it only the front coil mount that fails and is it the coil bracket itself(can't see how it would) or the lug welded to the frame top tube ? in which case my ignition would die as I've used the rear coil bracket mount to earth my ignition amplifier. Maybe I should move that someplace else too.
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It was generally the front coil bracket that would break off of the frame tube at the welds.
I think I have heard of the rear breaking also, but mine is fine.
Here is a good thread on auxiliary grounding on Boxerworks.
http://boxerworks.com/phorum5/read.php?6,43277,43277#msg-43277
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That's a thought provoking thread - thanks Rob.
As a life long exponent of ohms law I should probably pay more attention to the efficiency of the wiring.
For me Duane hits close to the mark with his comment about not necessarily relying on measurements with an ohm meter. Having a good earth helps to achieve very low voltage drops in a circuit and that's what matters. Rather than measuring resistance the correct thing to do is to measure voltage drop under actual working conditions, then you get to see what's really happening. Positive supply cables are just as important too. Its the total voltage drop in a circuit that counts. Ask anyone who has grappled with 6 Volt bike electrics where these issues are twice as important.
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That Dyna coil is of a different design, than the pictures I've seen on Motorrad Elektrik website photos .
They have the laminate steel part of the coil, sticks out of each end, and is not covered in epoxy/insulating material .
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I've never noticed a main earth connection on my front coil bracket. Maybe a PO moved it some place else. I'll have to check.
Mine was and now is mounted to the speedo cable fixing bolt the photo is of it before i stripped it down to rebuild.
http://s278.photobucket.com/albums/kk113/luckyloudiamond/?action=view¤t=100_1159.jpg
Slideshow
http://s278.photobucket.com/albums/kk113/luckyloudiamond/?action=view¤t=e136bacb.pbw
Lou
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Lou,
That was one rusty bike before you restored it.
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Lou,
That was one rusty bike before you restored it.
Yeh but look at her now with her new skirt for her 30th birthday
Lou
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I've never noticed a main earth connection on my front coil bracket. Maybe a PO moved it some place else. I'll have to check.
Mine was and now is mounted to the speedo cable fixing bolt the photo is of it before i stripped it down to rebuild.
Lou
I am talking about the main ground for the wiring harness - NOT the honkin' big ground wire from the negative terminal on the battery to the bike.
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I've never noticed a main earth connection on my front coil bracket. Maybe a PO moved it some place else. I'll have to check.
Mine was and now is mounted to the speedo cable fixing bolt the photo is of it before i stripped it down to rebuild.
Lou
I am talking about the main ground for the wiring harness - NOT the honkin' big ground wire from the negative terminal on the battery to the bike.
Yeh but one of the images shows that "honkin" big wire lashed to the coil where it doesnt belong!!
It wont do the starter motor any good attached to the frame.
Lou
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I was talking about the main ground for the wiring harness.
My honkin' big ground wire is in the same normal place as yours Lou and I agree I wouldn't put it on the coil bracket if I was to move it. Maybe somewhere close to the starter.
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So what are we saying regarding the best mounting point for the main earth cable off the battery? Not on the rear coil bracket? Is it best on the speedo cable bolt as on Lou's photo, or as near as possible to the starter motor?
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So what are we saying regarding the best mounting point for the main earth cable off the battery? Not on the rear coil bracket? Is it best on the speedo cable bolt as on Lou's photo, or as near as possible to the starter motor?
It should be on the speedo bolt as this earths it direct to the engine block giving the best connection to the starter motor.There is another lighter wire (brown)to the frame ground point
Lower power connections are fine on the frame .
Lou
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Yes the stock position for main earth from the battery is on the speedo bolt. The reason yours may have been relocated Boo is because some owners move them on account of the speedo bolt being prone to stripping the thread particularly if you follow the pratice of removing the earth regularly to isolate the battery.
As Lou says somewhere on the engine block is better than the frame if it is to be moved.
Maybe others who have moved that earth cable will chime in and say where they put it.
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I have read, but I have not yet made the change, that one of the best locations is the lower transmission fastener on the right-hand side (brake pedal).
This requires a longer cable.
Ken-in-Oklahoma on Boxerworks talks of fastening it to one of the transmission cover screws, with a longer-than-stock screw, and some washers. On the left-top side (I don't think I've seen a picture).
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I take the point about stripping the treads on the speedo mount i always disconnect the earth from the battery end when im working on the beancan or other electric bits.
I wonder if you could fit the cable to the starter motor mount under the top cover if your going to the trouble of replaceing the cable?
Lou
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I considered running it through the starter cover, somewhere, but that would make removal of the cover a major pain.
I would think.
I am more than willing to be proven wrong! :)
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Ok then...new points gapped at .40mm, new condenser, new plugs gapped at .60mm, new plugs and leads, new Dyna coil with a healthy looking blue/white spark...no start up!! Battery is charged and cranking well.
I'm now thinking about the carbs. Float bowls are at the levels they should be. My next task is to clean the main jets and look for any contamination. Anything else I should be trying? >:(
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If its not starting i would be stripping the enrichers at this point, the main jet isnt in use at start.
Theres a good article on the enricher here.
http://www.gunsmoke.com/motorcycling/r100gs/carb_rebuild/index.html
Lou
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2x on the "Gunsmoke" carb article. Great photos and article helped inspire confidence during my carb work.
The enrichener circuit -commonly called a choke- is actually a small carburetor within the larger CV unit. Clean 'em up and note the correct reassembly position of the outer cover plate. Mind the little O-ring.
As the enrichener provides fuel for initial start-up. Suggest you begin there. Report back with your success. [smiley=thumbup.gif]
Monte
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Not to offend your troubleshooting abilities, but is there fuel flow to the carbs ?
Sometimes the simplest things get overlooked !!!
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Yeah, fuel into the carbs all good. Cleaned all the jets etc and checked diaphragms. There appears to be compression, although thats only a finger test. Enrichener was overhauled some months back, but I'll check again. There is not even any slight take up on starting: no bite from the cylinders at all. I seem to have all the components for ignition..spark,fuel and compression. Head scratcher!!
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Have you checked the spark plugs after attempting a start ?
Just wondering if you have fuel or not, on the plugs .
I'm not fond of using starting fluid on the bike, but a quick spray into the intake horns may get it going .
A real long-shot here, but I developed a hard starting issue with my '81 R65, the starter was dry on lubricant, and it was drawing too much power from the battery while in use, leaving not enough power to operate the ignition system at peak output .
I was told about a test for this, charge the battery overnight, remove the ignition leads from the spark plugs, connect a voltmeter to the battery terminals, crank the starter for about 45 seconds to get the 'top charge' off of the battery, then check the battery voltage during starter operation, it shouldn't be below 10.2 volts .
If it does have low voltage, the starter needs a good cleaning and lubrication .
My starter sounded just fine before being serviced, and really couldn't tell much difference in cranking speed after being lubed .
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remove the ignition leads from the spark plugs
Be sure to put a spare set of plugs in and earth them on the heads before you crank the engine or you will risk damaging the coil.
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If it was not for Rick at Motorrad Elektrik, boxers would be found on the side of the roads everywhere!! He has great info whether he is selling his stuff or not. His instructions and pictures are great, the installation was neat and simple for all the products I have purchased. [smiley=bmw_smiley.gif]
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So..a weather window has allowed me a few hours today!! Cleaned up carbs as best as I could without doing a full overhaul. No apparent issues other than a missing locknut on the right carbs enrichener lever. As I attempted startup, things fired up as the carb cleaner burnt off, but stopped as soon as it ran out. I sprayed more carb cleaner into the air filter and the same scenario..a near start, kicks in for a few moments but then dies again. A whole lot of whitish smoke out of the exhausts as well as it attempts to fire. So electrical side seems ok...I'm looking at a fuel issue....but I just cleaned out the carbs/enricheners, and there were no apparent blockages. Float bowels have fuel...no contamination, so there is an issue between the float bowl and the atomiser...or possibly diaphragms (which looked ok?) Both sides behaving in a similar fashion though.... stumped!! http://www.bmwr65.org/htdocs/yabbfiles/Smilies/furious3.gif[smiley=furious3.gif] [smiley=furious3.gif] [smiley=furious3.gif] [smiley=furious3.gif] [smiley=furious3.gif]
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I think you need to get the carbs ulrasonically cleaned before you go any further, you may want to sign up here.
http://gabfesters.co.uk/index.php?act=idx
They have regular workshop days and alot of the members are in London so there may be help close at hand.
Lou
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Waddya think of this??
http://www.maplin.co.uk/module.aspx?moduleno=223108&C=Brilliant1&U=Xmas%2009%20-%20Home%20&%20Car&T=ultrasonic%20cleaner&gclid=CLWk3Nils54CFRaX2AoduHuLmQ
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The tank is a bit shallow at 140mm (L) x 115mm (W) x 42mm (D) if you are thinking of getting the whole carb in. Otherwise it seems a bargain at that price.
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I got an ultrasonic cleaner about 3 years ago, and personally, it didn't do much in my opinion, to clean the carbs .
I even got a cleaning solution specifically for aerospace aluminum alloys, and all it did was darken the aluminum .
Ultrasonic cleaners, are surface cleaners, so they won't 'open up' small drilled passageways in the carb, if that is what you were hoping for .
I originally got the cleaner to clean mechanical clock movements, in this application, they do a phenomenal job of cleaning and brightening the brass/bronze metals .
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So...plugs are wet looking when pulled, so I assume the fuel is getting into the cylinder. I have not done the ultrasonic job on then yet. Float bowls fill up. Diaphragms ok. Spark is wonderfull!!
Still no joy. Partial firing with aid of carb cleaner. I checked the valves on the left cylinder, and the intake side had no clearance at all. I re-set it to .10mm, but still no luck. Now I'm thinking it could be a valve issue!! It got dark before I could do the other side. Blimey!!!
[smiley=wall.gif]
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Stick with it - Spark/fuel/compression in the right quantity and at the right time and it just has to go.
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Have you checked the timing ??? i fitted new points and couldnt get it to run i discovered the plastic cam follower on the points had broken retarding the timing about 10% its not easy to see it with the end bearing cap on??
Lou