The New And Improved Unofficial R65 Forum V2
Technical Discussion => BMW Technical Q&A, Primarily R65 => Topic started by: invincibleone on September 08, 2009, 12:54:15 PM
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So I rode the 1982 R65LS from Delaware to Toronto for a friends wedding. It ran great all the way up & superbly for a day around town sightseeing. However Sunday after the wedding the battery was dead; I pushed started it but it was clear the bike wasn't charging.
I don't know if you all remember but it did this once before (1400 miles ago) and the forum came to the conclusion the burned out GEN bulb was the culprit. Now when I start the bike the Gen lamp goes out like it should, but it obviously isn't charging.
Any help is much appreciated.
Fissel the Missile
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You'll still need to test with a volt meter to confirm no charging. Attach the volt meter to your battery, start the bike and rev the motor up over 3,000 rpms or so. Your battery voltage should go up to about 14.2; if it doesn't change then your're not getting any charge. When mine had the symptoms you describe it turned out that my voltage regulator had failed and was not passing any current.
http://bmwmotorcycletech.info/techindex.htm
has several electrical articles, though if my charging system ever gives me fits I'm going to buy a book shown on this web site:
http://www.crbmw.com/content/view/22/46/
as I think these have complicated charging systems.
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You may be able to get some help from a local member of the CVMG (Canadian Vintage Motorcycle Group) who is familiar with BMW's. Here is the email for the executive secretary:
cvmg.secretary@yahoo.ca
Failing that, call a BMW shop to see if they can recommend a place that works on BMW's.
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Without putting a meter on the battery and running the engine, like Ed mentioned, it's hard to say what the problem is .
How old is the battery ?
If it's a serviceable type, how does the electrolyte level look ?
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Brushes on the stator rotor could be worn out...
Monte
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I know this won't solve your charging system problem, but if your stuck and need to get home this may help.
A few of us were in Northern Newfoundland, where there is a serious lack of support services, when a buddy's charging coil failed.
The two major draws on a motorcycle battery are the starter and the headlight. (The horn is the third, but how often is it needed?) He just so happened to have a small 12 charger with him, which looked like a AC adapter with a black and red lead, so we charged his battery overnight at the motel we stayed in. Another rider had the exact same battery so the plan was to swap them if his drained, but it was remarkable how long he was able to run on his own battery, with just the ignition and signals.
We disconnected his headlight plug, and bump started the bike and I believe we rode for two days before changing batteries.
(We didn't dare ride after sundown up there - MOOSE !)
I hope this at least helps you get home.
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Alright so I charged the battery and bought a multimeter. Battery takes charge, definitley not the issue. At the diode board (aka rectifier) when the terminal to the B+ post is pulled I get 14.2 volts. When attached I get 11.9. I believe this means I have a bad diode board? My manual is 462 miles away. CAN SOMEONE CONFIRM THIS FOR ME? Either way it is either the diode board or voltage regulator correct???? There appears to be a few dealers in the area so with any luuck I can get this part in the morning and get home by Thursday morning for work.
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I'm looking at the charging troubleshooting guide by Rick Jones, owner of Motorrad Elektrik .
The test of the diode board requires removing the assembly from the bike .
Remove the ground wire from the battery .
The test for the diodes, is, put one lead from the meter on the B+ terminal on the diode board, next place the other meter lead on the AC input terminals, these appear in the picture, to be located in the gap between the metal parts the diodes are pressed into, and are parallel to the opening between the metal parts .
If the diode is good, it should have 'continuity ' in one direction , and an 'open' in the reverse direction .
So, if you put the red lead on the B+ terminal all of the diodes should have either low ohms, usually less than 10 ohms, or they should all be open, or ifninite resistance .
When you reverse the leads, put the black lead on B+, and then check the diode terminals, it show the opposite of your first reading .
The second test is to use the D+ terminal, and the previously used diode terminals, and perform the same test, the results should be the same if the board is good, all three diodes show low resistance in one direction, and open or infinite resistance in the opposite direction .
Hope this may have helped you, more than it may have confused you .
From the manual, it doesn't appear that the regulator is the issue, but here is the test for it .
The regulator could be one of two types, the original is a rectangular metal can with usually red tape over the seam in the metal case near the bottom, the other type is a red and black plastic module about 3/4 th's of an inch thick .
Remove the three pin connector from the regulator, and place a wire jumper between the blue wire, and the black wire terminals in the connector .
Place the meter leads on the battery .
Start the engine, and run it to about 2000 rpm's, and you should have a high voltage showing at the battery should be above 14 volts .
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Ran out of space in the previous posting .
Don't run the engine for any longer than you have to for the regulator test, as you have no over voltage protection, the alternator will put out as much as it can .
Hope this helped you out more than it may have confused you .
If you need further technical assistance, Motorrad Elektrik has a tech help available at : motoelekt@mindspring.com , telephone number (413) 556-8701 .
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Bob-
Thanks a million. The local BMW dealer can't get either the voltage regulator or the diode board until tomorrow am. It sounds like a diode board failure, but I am going to use the above mentioned method to make 100% certain.
Also- don't brake down in Canada. The local dealer quoted me prices which were roughly twice that of BikeBandit, which is about 90% more expensive after factoring currency conversion.
Fissel the Missile
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UPDATE:
So with diode board removed I do indeed have open one way, but certainly not continuity the other way, in fact resistence through the board is so high it can only be measured in megohms. Just to be 100% certain this is measuring with the black lead on what I believe to be B+ (looking at it, the terminal which comes out and makes a 90 degree bend upward, on what would be the left hand side of the bike) and with the red lead on the smaller central post coming off the other side of the board.
I ordered the board for $254 CaD which equates to US $232. The BikeBandit price is $125.55 :(
Something most of you dont know about me: I am a Delaware Air National Guardsman and I have to report this Friday. The part is scheduled to arrive at Toronto BMW at 9am; if this doesn't fix it I am going to have to find a place to leave the bike in Toronto and take a flight home. Hopefully this does it.
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Well I just wanted to confirm that I did eventually get home. Installing a new diode board got it charging, at least sort of. It went from not charging at all to charging a steady 12.35 volts with the new board. Maybe the voltage regulator is fried also??? It got me home charging 12.35, but still isn't 100%. I would assume it should probably be at least 13.25 volts at about 2500 rpm???
I think I'll look into the possibly of a combined diode board & voltage regulator failure tomorrow. At least it is usable again with the new diode board.........
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Old wires, Fissel, old wires and connections.
Start with new NAPA-made battery ground and positive wires with copper terminals and heavier gauge wire.
Then, "in your spare time," begin replacing the OEM wires and terminals as far as you can go within the charging system. Failing that, replace the spade terminals. Most are likely corroded and providing much resistance throughout the system.
You'll be surprised at what a difference this will make in the BMW's charging performance.
Photo of my latest R65 battery ground strap...
Monte
(https://bmwr65.org/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi196.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Faa1%2Fmontmil%2FBMW%2520R65%2FBattcable.jpg&hash=8e51a9a27e06c3cf8d51289ced3e2aa48f20e5b0)
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Old wires, Fissel, old wires and connections.
Start with new NAPA-made battery ground and positive wires with copper terminals and heavier gauge wire.
Then, "in your spare time," begin replacing the OEM wires and terminals as far as you can go within the charging system. Failing that, replace the spade terminals. Most are likely corroded and providing much resistance throughout the system.
You'll be surprised at what a difference this will make in the BMW's charging performance.
Photo of my latest R65 battery ground strap...
Monte
(https://bmwr65.org/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi196.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Faa1%2Fmontmil%2FBMW%2520R65%2FBattcable.jpg&hash=8e51a9a27e06c3cf8d51289ced3e2aa48f20e5b0)
Doubtful. This bike has just over 16,000 miles on it and 3,500 are from me in the last few months. The bike has never spent a night outside and I haven't seen signs of electrical corrosion anywhere.
Rather than just replacing wires thought to possibly be bad I could simply ohm each of them out to see if any have excessive resistance. But if there was enough resistance to drop a volt (or more) we would be producing a fair amount of heat, and that doesn't seem to be the case.
I have a gut feeling it is the voltage regulator.
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I will say your wire making skills are impressive...........
Years ago I was a mechanic at the Automotive Road of Dreams Museum in Orange County California and I was regularly replacing corroded to bits positive & ground straps on vehicles. I generally just purchased pre-made cables but on some vehicles with very long, large gauge wires I did have to make them. I always thought I was quite able at this task, but it appears you would give me a run for my money.
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Charging system output should be checked with engine rpm's around the 4000 area, this is where the charging system really starts working .
A test for the regulator is pretty quick, remove the connector from the regulator, and place a wire 'jumper' between the terminals for the black and blue wires, this completely removes the regulator from the circuit, and puts full battery voltage to the rotor, the alternator will now produce as much electrical power that it can .
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Yes, I plan to test it tonight. I'll get back with results. I thought that if all is well system should put out 14V (+/- 0.25V) at 2000 rpm when blue is jumped to black on regulator harness.
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It all depends on the state of charge of the battery as well, if the battery is not in a full state of charge, the excitation voltage to the rotor will be lower, and a lower output of the alternator will result .
The speed of the rotor is another factor, seeing as how the rotor spins at crankshaft speed, most alternators are 'geared' to rotate around 3 times engine speed, so even at idle, they are spinning around the 3-4000 rpm area.
The rotors on our bikes don't get to that speed until you get up to highway speeds .
If you routinely ride in 'city' traffic you will have a chronically low state of charge on your battery, due to the low output of power from the Bosch charging system on our bikes .
When I lived in Chicago, I had a 5 mile ride to work, with 13 stop lights, if I didn't put a battery charger on the bike overnight at least once every 5 days, the battery would be 'dead' on the sixth or seventh day .
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It all depends on the state of charge of the battery as well, if the battery is not in a full state of charge, the excitation voltage to the rotor will be lower, and a lower output of the alternator will result .
The speed of the rotor is another factor, seeing as how the rotor spins at crankshaft speed, most alternators are 'geared' to rotate around 3 times engine speed, so even at idle, they are spinning around the 3-4000 rpm area.
The rotors on our bikes don't get to that speed until you get up to highway speeds .
If you routinely ride in 'city' traffic you will have a chronically low state of charge on your battery, due to the low output of power from the Bosch charging system on our bikes .
When I lived in Chicago, I had a 5 mile ride to work, with 13 stop lights, if I didn't put a battery charger on the bike overnight at least once every 5 days, the battery would be 'dead' on the sixth or seventh day .
Thanks for the further input. I was planning on performing the test with a fully charged battery.
While I don't think you were suggesting this, when I left Toronto the battery was fully charged at around 13.3v and every time I stopped for gas (twice) on the 527 mile journey home as well as when I finally got home, the battery was right around 12.3v. While I may have hit a touch of traffic on my way home, the vast majority of those miles were at or well above 3500 rpm, especially the last 100 miles or so; so the battery shouldn't have been below 13.0V. (?)
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The battery voltage should have been high after running at that speed for that time .
Have you checked the voltage at the battery, with the engine at 4000 rpm, it should be right around 14 volts .
That's all I would be really concerned about .
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Old wires, Fissel, old wires and connections.
Start with new NAPA-made battery ground and positive wires with copper terminals and heavier gauge wire.
Then, "in your spare time," begin replacing the OEM wires and terminals as far as you can go within the charging system. Failing that, replace the spade terminals. Most are likely corroded and providing much resistance throughout the system.
You'll be surprised at what a difference this will make in the BMW's charging performance.
Photo of my latest R65 battery ground strap...
Monte
(https://bmwr65.org/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi196.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Faa1%2Fmontmil%2FBMW%2520R65%2FBattcable.jpg&hash=8e51a9a27e06c3cf8d51289ced3e2aa48f20e5b0)
Doubtful. This bike has just over 16,000 miles on it and 3,500 are from me in the last few months. The bike has never spent a night outside and I haven't seen signs of electrical corrosion anywhere.
Rather than just replacing wires thought to possibly be bad I could simply ohm each of them out to see if any have excessive resistance. But if there was enough resistance to drop a volt (or more) we would be producing a fair amount of heat, and that doesn't seem to be the case.
I have a gut feeling it is the voltage regulator.
Could be the regulator... along with several other small bits that, when taken alone, do little impact the electrical circuitry but, when multiplied, do create voltage and resistance issues.
It has been my experience that mileage, or Hobbs hours, on any vehicle has little to do with the galvanic action taking place between dissimilar metals. BMW wiring utilizes the smallest (and cheapest) wiring as a manufacturing price point along with weak spade connectors that lose grip and increase resistance after the very first factory assembly. YM -and voltage-MV.
Monte
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Alright, regulator test finds voltage at 3500 rpm with regulator hooked up to be around 12.3 volts. With regulators blue wires jumped to black wire at same 3500 rpm voltage climbs to a shade over 14 volts.
Looks like I'll be calling Bob's BMW for a voltage regulator tomorrow.
Thanks for the help. I'll post a confirmation of repair with new regulator.
-Fissel the Missile
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I tend to carry a spare regulator inthe compartment under my seat. I know some folks who won't leave home without a spare diode board, but I haven't gone that "boy-scout" yet..
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I tend to carry a spare regulator inthe compartment under my seat. I know some folks who won't leave home without a spare diode board, but I haven't gone that "boy-scout" yet..
Do they really fail with that kind of regularity? The more I learn about the BMW charging system the more it scares me.
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No they don't fail often, but when one has a ~30 year old piece of machinery, with parts that aren't always found at every NAPA/Pep Boys store, one tends to carry a few items that may get one out of a jam someplace (or help a fellow airhead out of a jam). You do carry a spare inner tube, don't you ?
Since we have alot of new and returning airhead riders these days:
I'd also recommend to anyone in US or Canada to join the BMWMOA. Their "Anonymous" book (listing of BMW owner locations & phone #s who are willing to help out a stranded/distressed rider in need) is good backup/insurance. I am in there, and while I personally haven't had to get help from another member, I have friends who were saved by some "angel" who appeared with a spare part and cup of coffee, or a trailer, or provided a garage and full set of tools to work on a bike. One friend had the rear shock on his K75RT blow apart on a Saturday night while he was on a long tour 1000 miles from home - he was basically done at that point, but as it happened, a BMWMOA member drove 20 miles to meet him and gave him an almost new shock off his own K bike. You may meet the friendliest people on a Honda, but you meet the most helpful people on a BMW.
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The charging system isn't really overly problematic, I personally have 82,000 miles on the original components .
Though I know my diode board will most likely be the first part to give up it's job, due to running two 55 watt drivings lights for the last 6 years .
But like Nhmaf has mentioned, the bikes are in the 25-30 year old range, even if they have low mileage, and failures are to be expected, can you imagine what kind of problems you would have with a 4 wheeler of similar age .
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Hey Missle, unless you're really intent on keeping everything OEM, you should check Motobins for that voltage regulator. It's way less than the one from BMW. You could buy two, mount one, and have a spare for less $.
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No they don't fail often, but when one has a ~30 year old piece of machinery, with parts that aren't always found at every NAPA/Pep Boys store, one tends to carry a few items that may get one out of a jam someplace (or help a fellow airhead out of a jam). You do carry a spare inner tube, don't you ?
Since we have alot of new and returning airhead riders these days:
I'd also recommend to anyone in US or Canada to join the BMWMOA. Their "Anonymous" book (listing of BMW owner locations & phone #s who are willing to help out a stranded/distressed rider in need) is good backup/insurance........................................................
Well said.
And no, I don't carry a spare tube, but for the Toronto Trip I did carry a Rema Tip-Top M/C patch kit; which takes up far less baggage space than a tube.
I also agree with the bit about the BMW-MOA. I was actually a member back in 2002 when I had my last BMW, an R90. I had every intention a joining prior to this journey but it just slipped my mind until I was packing the night before. I actually had my old 2002 Anonymous book with me, but I didn't attempt to call anyone as I had the issue more or less under control (ie the bike was safe in a friends shed, I had a place to stay & I was able to order the parts from the local dealer). Had the bike broken down en route home (in rural up-state NY) I certainly would have been mad at work dialing those 7 year old numbers.
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Hey Missle, unless you're really intent on keeping everything OEM, you should check Motobins for that voltage regulator. It's way less than the one from BMW. You could buy two, mount one, and have a spare for less $.
Are you talking about this???
http://www.motobins.co.uk/displayfinal.php?q=73115&go=GO
That is basically the exact same price as the oem part. Plus I already ordered it from Bobs BMW (for $85.54 shipped as I am too busy this week to make the 60 mile drive down)
And whenever possible I do prefer OEM.
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...I'd also recommend to anyone in US or Canada to join the BMWMOA...
Ask ol' Bengt just how helpful his BMWMOA road service policy was when he was broken down and got connected with an out-source call center somewhere in Bumfukistan. I prefer the Airheads BMW Club...
Monte, ABC 12411
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Actually the Anonymous Book came to my rescue in South Haven, MS just this past July on the way to the rally when Theresa's back tire had a defective valve stem. The first guy I called was a local and put me in touch with a Honda shop that saved us from spending the night in a Wally world parking lot. The incident Monte mentions, what Theresa and I lovingly refer to as "BrokeBike Mountain" was an issue with the BMW MOA roadside assistance program. That both sucked and blew at the same time. It's a six pack discussion but suffice to say that sub-continent Indians do not fully appreciate the potential severity when combining defective Hall sensors and impending tornadoes. :o
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The road service policy is one thing - with insurance companies - you get whatever they've outsourced the service to. But with a book for fellow BMW-philes, one can get better quality help, quite often.
What insurance policy do the airheads offer ? I am an airhead member, but don't recall what coverage they offer?
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No insurance policies for sale that I'm aware of but they do have a membership "I'll help ya" list... and they all ride Airhead BMWs. Monte
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If you are in the Airheads you should get the Dairectory. I'm in it.
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I've never received a printed copy of the Dairectory - and their online one is kaput at the moment....
Maybe I need to use the coffee can and string telephone... ;)
They sure do like their coffee, and go through alot of it. I don't know how Sue and her buddies could stand being next to that 3 KW generator they fired up every morning to start brewing their gallons of coffee at the BMWMOA rally. The generator only seemed to be not running between midnight- 5 AM ?
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Sorry for the delayed response..............
My PC was acting up fierce so I took it to Geek Squad figuring it was just a virus issue but it turned out to be a bad motherboard. So today I finally got around to shelling out $754.96 for a new computer. Some luck I am having with electronics this month huh?
Anyway, the voltage regulator arrived a week ago today and I installed it last Thursday. The design is a bit different from the original but it works swell. My charging system is finally A-OK. At idle I am just under 12 volts but by 1500 I am in the mid 12's and anything over 3000 shows 13.98 where it stays. After an easy 50 mile ride voltage at the battery was a healthy 12.98 volts. So first it was the "Gen" bulb, then the Diode Board & Regulator at once? Hopefully my charging system takes better care of me for a while.
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Sounds ok now. The real test of a fully charged battery though is to wait until the surface charge has dissipated say overnight and you should then see around 12.6 volts depending on the type of battery chemistry.
You know we might have been able to help diagnose the computer problem. A few of work in IT.
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I've never received a printed copy of the Dairectory - and their online one is kaput at the moment...
Online back up. I emailed with the Airhead member fixing the on-line dAirectory just as he was getting it tweaked. Monte ABC 12411
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You know we might have been able to help diagnose the computer problem. A few of work in IT.
Good to know. I am far from computer savvy but it was really time for a new PC anyway. My last unit was nearing 6 years old. What I bought amounts to one of the more basic Dell towers and it is better in every aspect than what it replaced, which was top notch 6 years ago.
Though I appreciate the benefits of technology, I wouldn't mind if it didn't have to move soo fast.