The New And Improved Unofficial R65 Forum V2
Technical Discussion => BMW Technical Q&A, Primarily R65 => Topic started by: likerobots on September 06, 2009, 01:40:11 PM
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HI All,
Just found this forum, and reading through it, I've found alot of useful advice. Thanks for that.
I am changing my leaking oil pressure sender which is great.
However I have another issue.
Bike has always started great without choke but as of late, its been difficult to start. It takes a lot of tryes and holding the starter down. IN any case carbs were cleaned recently and synced so I dont think thats the issue.
ON an unrelated issue but happened at the same time. When I take the bike for a hard ride, after 15 mins the bike starts idling at 3K :o. the only way to bring the idles down is to slip the clutch and have it go down to 1.2. But then it starts creeping up.
Any ideas about any of the 2 above issues?
Thanks so much :)
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If its been starting with no choke then it could be running rich...does it pop and fart when you shut the revs off? if so thats a sign of rich mixture you may need to re jet it.
Try starting full choke no throttle until it fires then tweak the choke back.
Revs sticking at 3k probably the diaphragms replace them with Bing originals avoid generic versions and stop using fuel additives (if you are)
Lou
ps which part of the planet earth are you from??
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If the carbs were just synchronized, a common problem with high idle rpm's once the bike gets up to operating temperature, is that the carb synch was done on an engine not up to temperature .
You didn't say what year bike you have, but if you have an '81 or later bike, with the single dual output coil, it's a known problematic part, especially if it's the original gray and black version, commonly referred to as the 'crack-o-matic' coil, it could be going bad, causing hard starting .
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Thanks for the response. guys.
Its a 1982 BMW 65 LS and I live in NYC.
This has started happening lately.
The bike idles great, a bit shaky but very even tick over.
The revs were totally normal after the carb clean/ sync a few months ago even at full operating temp.
Also apparently the oil pressure sender I got was the wrong one.
Its the wells ps102 but the diameter of the threads is smaller and it has a conical taper after the threads. Pretty strange, I guess i need to keep looking.
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I had a high idle problem on my '82 when the bike was warmed up that turned out to be a timing problem. Like the carbs, the timing should be adjusted when the engine is fully warmed up. It's a pretty simple job using the Clymer or Haynes manual. Just be careful of those hot pipes when you're rotating the bean can (no need to ask me how I know) and be sure you always disconnect the negative battery terminal when you take the front cover off. I have not always remembered to do this, but have been lucky enough not to cook my diode board the couple of times I've forgotten.
Good Luck with it! ;)
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Check the valve settings (0.1 mm on the intake and 0.15-0.20 on the exhaust). The intake is probably OK, but if the exhaust is less than the recommended settings the engine will idle at a high level, especially after a hard ride.
Adjust the valvesettings and if the problem disappears you have found the culprit.
If the problem reappears after less than 3,000 miles the valveseats are receding and you will have to have new valveseats and valves.
greetings from a grey but dry north, very good riding conditions
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lso apparently the oil pressure sender I got was the wrong one.
Its the wells ps102 but the diameter of the threads is smaller and it has a conical taper after the threads. Pretty strange, I guess i need to keep looking.
Try NAPA p/n OP6065SB. I paid just under $8. Take the original in to the store for comparison.
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lso apparently the oil pressure sender I got was the wrong one.
Its the wells ps102 but the diameter of the threads is smaller and it has a conical taper after the threads. Pretty strange, I guess i need to keep looking.
Try NAPA p/n OP6065SB. I paid just under $8. Take the original in to the store for comparison.
Can't tell what the NAPA part number is for but if it's a Volkswagen unit, don't use it as the threads are wrong for the BMW bike. It's some sorta conspiracy thing... you need to buy the BMW automobile unit.
Sticky advance weights can cause a high idle. I have found some advance units packed with hardened grease! That's not the preferred lubricant.
Pull the bean can and remove the oval-shaped metal plug located on the side. You'll be able to see the advance mechanism as you rotate the shaft. Check that the two springs are still attached and intact.
Hold the bean can with the front end slightly elevated and position the advance unit where you can see the pivot points. Look for blue plastic bushings.
Hose the pivots with WD40 or similar. Don't use carb cleaner as you may well melt the plastic bits in the can. Rotate to the second advance weight assembly and do it again. Pour out the excess through the inspection port. Shake down any additional cleaner and pour it out or poke a shop towel into the hole just a wee bit and soak up any leftover. You'll likely see very dirty cleaner.
Lightly lube the pivots and the area nearby. I use a machine oil Does not require much lube as the weights swing on nylon glides.
Refit the metal plug, stab the can back in place, then reset ignition timing.
Monte
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Can't tell what the NAPA part number is for but if it's a Volkswagen unit, don't use it as the threads are wrong for the BMW bike. It's some sorta conspiracy thing... you need to buy the BMW automobile unit.
Agreed. The part number I mentioned is for the BMW auto, not VW.
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Get the basics right.
Before trying anything complicated be sure to adjust the idle when fully warm as has been suggested.
There's something about CV carbs that makes them not return to idle easily if idle is set too high. A little bit too high and your into the ignition advance curve which makes for an even higher idle speed and so on...
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Get the basics right.
Before trying anything complicated be sure to adjust the idle when fully warm as has been suggested.
There's something about CV carbs that makes them not return to idle easily if idle is set too high. A little bit too high and your into the ignition advance curve which makes for an even higher idle speed and so on...
Barry makes a very good point. Before messing with the borderline worthless outside-the-carb idle screws, revisit the idle tune using the air mixture screws. I set my R65s using only the idle air and keep the idle stop screws just off the butterfly lever.
Monte
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High idle that can be dropped by slipping the clutch is often a sign of sticky weights in the bean can. As i mentioned before on this board the Omega electronic ignition cured the problem for me. No bean can sensor or ignition module to worry about either. YMMV.
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High idle that can be dropped by slipping the clutch is often a sign of sticky weights in the bean can. As i mentioned before on this board the Omega electronic ignition cured the problem for me. No bean can sensor or ignition module to worry about either. YMMV.
The Omega, and the soon to be released Alpha from Motorrad Elektrik (did you catch the product's segue?), both offer digital advance programs. I do know that the M-E Alpha will use the same Honeywell-branded Hall sensor as does the OEM bean can. Unsure about the Omega. The Omega is approx $100.00 less expensive...
Monte
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What? Rick is releasing his own electronic ignition? gotta go look....
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Cost is $300US .
http://www.motoelekt.com/alpha.htm
Looks like it just made the OEM 'bean can' obsolete !!
But as it was stated earlier, I'll wait to let them get the inevitable 'bugs' worked out of the Version 1 .
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What? Rick is releasing his own electronic ignition? gotta go look....
Not on the web site yet as Rick has not even received his first shipment from the manufacturer... whomever that might be. Rick is selling the product but does not, according to what he told me last Friday, build the unit. No biggie as Motorrad sells cool stuff that Rick stands behind.
Unknown if the Alpha will be driven off the crankshaft as is the Omega product. Anxious to see the Alpha and hear some owner reports. Who among us will it be?
Monte
09 Sept 09 - Well, cut mine off and call me shorty! On Friday, Rick said his website didn't yet have the new Alpha ignition bits "up" but now he do! Cool.
http://www.motoelekt.com/alpha.htm
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Interesting that the Alpha Ignition advance doesn't start until 1400 RPM. That in itself is a form of idle speed stabilisation.
At least one other make of electronic ignition (and I can't remember which) actually provides idle speed stabilisation by having a dip in the advance curve just above idle so that if the idle speed tends to rise a small amount of retard will slow it down again.
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Thanks for all the info.
I took the bean can off and pried of the little cover on top.
Put some oil in there and moved the spring up and down to make sure nothing was catching on.
Bolted it back down and went for a ride. I made some rudimentary marks on the placement, but does it matter which way the can is positioned if its an electronic ignition?
IN any case no change. Maybe the revs are a bit lower, but still climb up to 2 and up to 3 depending on how hard I push the bike.
There is definitely a colleration between riding hard and having really high idle. If I sit at a light and let it alone, it slowly starts dipping down.
Nothing crazy, but maybe down to 1.5.
So you are suggesting, go for a good long ride, pull over somewhere and play with the mixture until the revs go to 1.25 or something?
thanks again,
Alex
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The position of the 'bean can' does matter, it adjusts the ignition timing, just like adjusting the distributor on a cage, when they had a distributor .
You can try making some adjustments on the idle mixture screws, but if that doesn't help, you need to go back and do a carb synchronization again .
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Good to know, thank you.
My experience is with old 2 stroke engines Vespa and Yamaha, so this is a bit different.
What is involved in a carb sync?
popsicle sticks?
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You need a manometer, or a set of vacuum gauges, specifically for motorcycles, as the needles will just bounce around, without proper damping in the vacuum tubing setup .
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Thanks.
Where are the idle mixture screws exactly on the carb?
Would they be have an identical adjustment between carbs or is it different for each. Just trying to figure out how not to throw everything out of balance as I am adjusting.
A.
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Alex, it seems you've reached a point with the high idle issue that it's going to be difficult to determine what the cause truly is due to the multiple changes and tweaks we've all talked you into trying. ::)
If your bike was my bike, I'd begin from the beginning. Confirm carb operations, including a fresh synchronization. I know, it's a bit of a PITA. Remember that the idle air and throttle stop screws must be "tuned" together. This takes patience.
Drag out the timing light and confirm timing marks at idle and full advance. If you see the marks jumping up and down, you may have a worn timing chain that is causing some idle issues.
I'd also suggest confirming the slide return springs are in good shape and the same length; the rubber carb connects are all snug and not leaking air; and the carb float levels.
It's frustrating, no doubt, but it'll get sorted by working a plan. One thing at a time, confirm, then the next issue. Good luck. Keep us in the loop.
Monte
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The idle mixture screws, are on the bottom side near the vacuum port, where if you still have the air injection system still installed on the bike, there should be a rubber hose going to the bottom side of each carb .
It looks like a common screwdriver straight slot on a brass screw .
I would try turning each clockwise a specified amount, like 1/8 or 1/4 turn each, that will lean out the mixture .
See how it runs then .
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Thanks Bob_Roller.
Seems like that did the trick for now. It does run much smoother and the revs are going down much faster. Rode it around for a 5 mins and so far so good.
I turned each at approx 1/4 clockwise.
I might need a longer ride to determine if this did work :)
Montmil, thank you for the detailed process breakdown.
I feel the carb adjustments might be out of my abilities :-?, but the timing is a very good idea to confirm.
This way I will also be able to determine if my advance is working as well, if I am understanding correctly.
The bike has 20000 miles so its bound to have some problems.
I love riding this bike. It feels solid yet light and has a good amount of power to play with.
Thanks for the advice. Its raining here now, so I will have to wait for a better day to test the latest adjustment fully and verify timing.
I should just use the gun that clips on to the terminal in the batter and to the frame correct? Nothing fancier than that?
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... and verify timing. I should just use the gun that clips on to the terminal in the batter and to the frame correct? Nothing fancier than that?
Well, the manuals state that you should use another battery rather than the one on the bike to power the timing light during checks and adjustments. Some folks claim it makes no difference, others say it does. I just roll the other R65 up next to the timing victim and go from there. Remember since the charging system is not charging until revs pick up to 1400-1500 or so, you're draiining the battery a wee bit as you work through the timing drill. That can make a difference.
Manuals also state that the pickup should be attached to the right-side plug lead. That's fine with me as there are enough cables and obstructions to vision that any more would add to the frustration. Again, some peeps say it makes no difference here either. So if it makes no difference, why not follow BMW's instructions, eh?
Monte
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I put a Sears battery charger on the battery ( shows a 4 amp charge during the synchronization process), and remove the head light, while doing a carb balance, with two fans blowing cooling air over the cylinders, and oil cooler .
Dip stick temp indicator never goes over 200 F.
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I had the same problem when my bike ran hot, the idle was way high too. I followed what the manual said. Adjust the idle during a good long ride (just pull into a parking lot with your two screwdrivers and reach down either side). The engine was definitely up to temp. It fixed that problem for me. Simple thank goodness!
Our manual states "tighten idle mixture screw fully but carefully on both carbs. [Seat them so to speak.] Then loosen by 1/4 turns. Adjust throttle butterfly stop screw on both carbs until it just touches throttle butterfly lever, then turn clockwise 1/2 turn"
Good luck Alex...simple things first helps.
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Check your coil for cracks if it's the grey one. Exact same starting problem happened with my friend's 82 R65. It was nearly impossible to start, but once started it would run. It was his coil. If you have the grey coil, just replace it. It's not a matter of if, it's a matter of when you will need to replace it. I switched to the Dyna. You can't beat the price and service from Rick.
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Thanks everyone. I will look into this and let you know how I make out.
Once this is all settled I can proceed onto making this into a bit more of a cafe bike, but thats a whole other topic all together ;)
Alex
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I have just reread this entire thread, twice; mainly because it's pretty interesting. However, I have an opposing thought regarding advice on the tuning of the idle air screws. I must have missed this when it was posted earlier...
...I would try turning each clockwise a specified amount, like 1/8 or 1/4 turn each, that will lean out the mixture...
I'm of the opinion that the clockwise, or closing, of the idle screw will actually increase the idle speed due to the richening of the mixture. All my Bing CV tweaking research indicates this to be correct. However, for the sake of intelligent discourse... Here's a scenario to consider:
The idle air screws control only... air. There is no fuel passing through this circuit; just air. So, with a given idle air setting that theoretically provides a 50-50 ratio of air to fuel, then closing the air screw -turning it clockwise- would thereby richen the mixture due to less air in the fuel/air mixture and thereby likely increase idle rpms.
I risked my 81's sweet carb synchronization job just to confirm this theory. Closing the idle air circuit screw by 1/8 turn -clockwise- raised my R65's idle rpm -I have a digital tach. Returning the screw to its original position, then opening the idle screw 1/8 turn -counterclockwise- from the synch'ed tuned position lowered the idle.
I'm no expert and I'm always open to learning experiences. [smiley=2cents.gif] Comments?
Monte
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On my Amals you could call them idle air screws, though I think they're actually called pilot air screws. But on CV carbs they control fuel flow, so turning them in leans the mix. I have to remember that between the two bikes, but that's the least of the differences!
I believe that on the R50/5 and R60/5, they used slide carbs which also had the mixture screw controling air, like on my Amals. And I bet they had ticklers too.
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I'll check the Bing manual when I get home this afternoon .
I don't get involved with the carbs that often, and the last time was 2 years ago .
I'll definitely get current again when the carbs for the LS get re-built in about a month, when the temps hopefully will not be getting to the 100 F. mark .
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I'll check the Bing manual when I get home this afternoon.
Cool, Bob. Got a few Airheads members that will probably flame me should I dispute their word but, hey.... ;) Interesting to say the least. And I did achieve the results noted in my "theory" posting. Monte
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I was looking for an email address for the Bing Agency, I figured they would be the definitive authorities on the subject, but I can't find an email address on their website, I'm at work, and it won't let me access it .
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Here you go. www.bingcarburetor.com
I need to go back and re-read these carb threads myself. Rebuilt the carbs on my R90/6 and have them adjust just fine. Runs like it ought to. Just finished the rebuild on the R65, and aside from the problem with the main jet venturi, the bike runs well but I can't seem to get them sync'd and there is either a fast idle or a stall. Same diaphragms and o-rings on both bikes. The carbs are very similar so why can't I get it smoothed out? Hmmm, things to ponder on....
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Thanks for the link, but when I click on the email on the top of the page, I get the no email service set up .
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Maybe the suits are trying to make sure that we do some work.
bing@bingcarburetor.com Try that one.
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Thanks, I'll see if I get an answer today .
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Just got a response from the Bing Agency, their response, the mixture screw, is the idle air adjustment .
I'd really like to get a 'circuit' diagram of the 64 series carbs, just to see where all of the passages go, and do !!!!
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Bob, here's my take on it.
It is correctly called the idle mixture screw because it controls a mixture of air and fuel at this point in the Bing CV Carb. There is an idle air inlet jet (just a hole which is not replaceable) at the carb inlet and a cross duct which provides the air to mix with the fuel passing through the idle jet.
The idle mixture screw controls how much of this mixture is admitted to the carb venturi although there is also a 2nd transfer port involved just to add confusion. Anyway this mixture mixes with the small amount of air passed by the throttle plate and that is why screwing in the idle mixture screw weakens the overall idle mixture and screwing out makes it richer.
BTW before anyone shoots me down in flames this is not actually a Bing CV carb. It's close enough though and the best diagram I can find to illustrate how a Bing CV works.
(http://)
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Thanks, Barry, that gets things a lot clearer on how it works .
I thought I knew how the Bing's worked, but I was way off !!!!!!
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Here's an article that describes how Bing Cv's work much better than I can. It was written back in 1978 shortly after they were introduced on airheads. The point about premixing air and fuel in all of the carb circuits is well made but the illustrations don't show this well which is why I posted the other diagram.
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All this chit-chat about high idle speeds must have been absorbed by my '81 R65 as the revs had just recently begun to be slow to drop, or just remain elevated, on a regular basis. [smiley=naughty.gif] Urrr... tiny fists of fury.
Then, a small wattage bulb clicked on over my head; refrigerator size...
My recent bean can "failure" -which turned out not to be a failure but simply a crushed and broken wire/s- required removal of the trigger unit for the wire repairs. After splicing in new wires, I stabbed the can back where I thought it looked right and rode on. Oops.
My new Actron timing light showed that the can was positioned in a well advanced location. Retarded that puppy and idle smoothed out. It's true... an idle speed near 1400 rpm touches the rev point where the advance mechanism begins its function. Messing with the carbs is futile unless the timing is set to specification.
BTW, the new Actron timing light did a fine job in throwing a focused beam that lit up the flywheel marks. No more working in the dark with the vintage Sun tool.
Monte
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Very good article, for the first time I have a feeling that I maybe understands the principle of the CV-carb.
greetings from a grey, windy, and precipitating north