The New And Improved Unofficial R65 Forum V2
Technical Discussion => BMW Technical Q&A, Primarily R65 => Topic started by: montmil on August 20, 2009, 02:36:09 PM
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At near zero-dark-thirty Tuesday morning, I'm geared up and hit the starter on the "81 R65 and all it does is go whir-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r. No fire.
Whip the Texas Antique Motorcycle license plate off Blackie and use two of those red plastic gem-crack & wingnut screws to transfer the tag to the Mexico Bike. Off to a boring day of state req'd school district orientation. Gag me.
By half-past five in the Texas PM, I'm back in the shop, sweating like a fresh f***ed fox in a forest fire. I know it's hot in Phoenix, too.
Between Tuesday evening and Wednesday afternoon, I check power to the coil with ignition on. Checks OK so I believe the ignition switch, kill switch and wiring are doing their thing.
Next pulled the plugs and secured them to the cylinder heads and turned on the ignition. By toggling the kill switch, you can sometimes get a spark at the plugs to confirm the ICU and coil are good. I got no spark so yanked the ICU and ran the DVOM tests as described in the manuals I have. All checks are up. Hum...
I next DVOM'd the Dyna primary and secondary windings but they were spot on.
Disconnected the three-wire plug to the bean can, "pinned" the center wire and with the ignition on, I got sparks at the plugs. This confirmed the ICU and coil were functional.
The only unknown remaining was the flippin' Hall sender in the bean can. All else having been eliminated, there was really no doubt in my little pea brain. Note to self: One of the the joys of having two R65s is the economy of scale in buying parts.
Removed the Motoraad Elektrik overhauled bean can from the '83 and eyeball timed it on the '81. Reattached the battery ground cable for something like the thirtieth time and hit the started button.
Blackie is back. The engine lit off before I could get my thumb off the starter button. Now I get to crack the can and fit one of the spare Hall senders I've acquired.
Monte [smiley=beerchug.gif]
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Nice diagnostic work Monte.
In case I was ever tempted to upgrade to a Hall sensor you just reminded me to stick with points in the can set up plus ignition amplifier - best of both worlds.
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This is my second bean can fart in a year with two R65s. Points are looking pretty good right now! Monte
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Damm Monte, what the hell is going on there in Texas ?
Two failures in less than a year .
Looks like Ampy's chickens are sending out some bad 'mojo' in your direction .
Looks like it's time for a sacrifice, to satisfy the motorcycle god's !!!!!!!
And a little fried chicken on the side as well .
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Damm Monte, what the hell is going on there in Texas ?Two failures in less than a year .
Looks like Ampy's chickens are sending out some bad 'mojo' in your direction . Looks like it's time for a sacrifice, to satisfy the motorcycle god's !!!!!!!
And a little fried chicken on the side as well .
It's that VooDoo hen, I'm betting. Although she is kinda cute.
Yep, it is a bit strange that both bikes would lose their Hall's within a year of each other. A planned obsolescence perhaps. The upside, if there is one, is that the failure happened in the garage and not 30 miles outside Toadsuck, Texas like the last one. BTW, there is such a place.
Monte
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I have never heard of (2) Hall sensors failing for the same owner, much less in the same state within a few months - perhaps it is all BAD luck, but you are one hell of a lucky guy, Monte ... Or else there are some really strange sources of radiation near where you live ...
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I hear your pain Monte!.
It really is the weakest link of the airhead. Good to have a spare readily available.
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Nice work Monte! [smiley=bmw_smiley.gif] I gather this is something I should expect to happen someday on my LS? [smiley=lipsrsealed.gif] Dave 2
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Nice work Monte! I gather this is something I should expect to happen someday on my LS? Dave 2
I believe I'll go with radiation from the VooDoo Hen theory of my two failures. ;D
DaveDos, I couldn't say you should expect a failure as many Beemers roll their entire lives on the same electronic widget. Plan ahead might be a good mantra. The age of the component has nothing to do with the failures, in my opinion. Wife's previous Cadillac had a "crankshaft trigger unit" fail at four years. One of our school's departments had a two-year old vehicle go down with the same issue. Go figure.
The BMW Ignition Trigger Unit, aka Bean Can, is an expensive component when purchased, if even available, through a dealership. The plan ahead suggestion would be to keep a weather eye out for a serviceable spare or buy one of the vane sensors and learn how to install it yourownself. Unfortunately, this is not a roadside repair job.
Many tourers carry a spare can with them along with a 4mm and 5mm Allen wrench. Quick swap out and you're rolling again. Or swap out and return to the age of contact points...
Monte
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Driving home today and pondering the world.... it struck me that the bean can is like the heart, if it stops ticking - the bike stops moving.
Only it is easier to carry a spare beancan in the glovebox......
That's what I do these days. Bought a brand spanker that is currently in service (also cured the high revs problem from the advance weights getting sticky) and I carry the old one which I fixed with a sensor from Jaycar as a spare.
Word of advice if repairing a bean can - make sure the new sensor is adequately bonded to the board inside the can - otherwise it will die prematurely by falling off and getting minced by the rotating tin part. It does create some rather entertaining bangs with flames shooting out the exhaust as it dies this way though..... :-X
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The upside, if there is one, is that the failure happened in the garage and not 30 miles outside Toadsuck, Texas like the last one. BTW, there is such a place.
I was about to throw the BS flag on this one but decided to do a little research before I did. Dagnabbit Monte, you're right! http://www.texasescapes.com/CentralTexasTownsNorth/Toadsuck-Texas.htm I thought I had been everywhere in Texas but I see now that I haven't. I've been to the Spanish Fort Coon Hunters Association building, Dime Box, Bug Tussle, Muleshoe but now I just have to add Toadsuck to my list. And if you ever get that bean can issue and all the other voodoo encrusted problems exorcised from those bikes I'll let you guide me there.
And like Monte, I think it's the chickens.
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Bengt Mike, Bengt Mike... tisk, tisk, tisk,
Have I ever mislead you with a non-truthful story? Are we not both charter members of the Cross My Heart 'n Fingers Choir?
As the soccer refs say, "Play on". ;D
Monte
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OK. Back on topic with a question regarding installing the new vane sensor in the Bean Can / Ignition Trigger Unit
I understand an adhesive to used to attach the electronic widget to its base or whatever. The bean can is subject to some fairly high temperatures. I'm looking for some advice on adhesives. Most epoxies will soften with heat. JB Weld? Anyone know of a heat tolerant 2-part epoxy that is readily available?
TIA, Monte
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I was under the impression (influence?), that the sensor was riveted to the plate, there are two metal pins that stick out of the sensor on the bottom, I saw at one time, a picture, that showed that those 'pins' were 'peened', looked like it had been hit by something like a chisel two times, and had a x across it on the bottom side and the metal had acted like the 'buck tail' on a rivet .
Any one had a canister apart, that knows for sure ?
Here's a reference for adding a second sensor to the can, and it references 'peening', the rivets .
http://www.geocities.com/fwarner_au/mc_things/bmwr_ign_sensor.html
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I've got one apart right now. Must've missed the rivet trick. Old eyes. I check again. Thanks for the link, Bob. I've heard about this mod but you're the first to provide a detailed explanation through the link.
Monte
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I peened my first one - but obiously not well enough as the aluminium fatigued and the sensor fell off into the rotating bit.
The second time I used an epoxy in conjuntion with a less intensive peening. So far so good.
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I don't know how well this will work in this situation, but I've drilled a small hole into the end of a rivet, and then you can use a center punch to 'peen' the metal into a rivet bucktail, I've never tried to peen a sensor, so I don't know if it's a soft steel, or aluminum .
Just checked the Hall sensors that I have, (Honeywell 2AV54) and the two pins are magnetic, so they may be a soft steel .
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I dont know what it looks like inside but rule of thumb with electronics subjected to heat and vibration a mechanical mount is always the preference.
However if that is not possible loctite makes a high temp adhesive that contains a thermal transfer grease like you would use to sink a power transistor.
Available at Mcmaster Carr.
I have used it to mount power LEDS that run very hot with long term success.
Chicken shit is an old time remedy for what ails ya...I happen to have an endless supply on hand if you want to give it a try!
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...Chicken shit is an old time remedy for what ails ya...
Your right, Ampy, it works!
Grandpa taught me to use it whenever I had chapped lips. It doesn't actually cure the problem but it does keep you from licking your lips. [smiley=mad.gif]
Monte
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Here's a current link to replacing the sensor :
http://robfrankham.co.uk/bike/replacing_the_hall_effect_sensor.htm
It is stated inhere as well, to peen the sensor, I've seen a sensor, that has two holes to use some sort of fastener, like a rivet, or screw and nut to attach the sensor to it's plate, I guess it depends on what type you have .
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Bob, Thanks for the link/s. Added the materials to my ever-growing Tech Files.
Noted, too, that the late Bill Emery of Australia is still helping us. Miss his vast wealth of knowledge.
Monte
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It is done! This Saturday morning, I began at about 0730 and had the bean can broken open, the Hall sensor replaced and reassembled by 1130 hours. It's five o'clock somewhere so I'm congratulating myself with a small taste of Evan Williams Single Barrel whiskey. Hmmm... good. [smiley=beer.gif]
Here's the bestest & gooderist link I've seen, courtesy Bob Roller. Thanks, Roberto!
http://robfrankham.co.uk/bike/replacing_the_hall_effect_sensor.htm
And a really big thank you to Trolle, across the water. [smiley=dankk2.gif]About a year ago, I bought a disassembled bean can and two new Hall sensors from Trolle as he said he did not have need of them. Saved my bacon and now I know how to reassemble Trolle's pieces parts. [smiley=clap.gif]
It's all good. Monte
PS: 1255 hours- Just now stabbed the bean can and reconnected the battery's ground cable. Pulled the enrichener lever, hit the starter button and the bike immediately fired off.
Round two now for Evan Williams. Hope y'all are having a great weekend.
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In Rob Frankham's link, he mentioned about two plates riveted together, did you happen to have one of these assemblies ?
How did you 'peen' the sensor to it's mounting plate ?
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The two bean can "plates" are OEM assembled with either two flathead machine screws or rivets. I have the machine screws on both my R65 cans so the rivet chore was not required. I read the article linked with Frankham's DIY but was fortunate to avoid a tedious chore. Got lucky.
The entire job is a non-event. Some very small bits to keep up with. I kept a strip of masking tape on the bench, sticky side up, and stuck parts down in order of their removal.
I've done a substantial amount of aircraft riveting so had all the tools I needed on-hand. The Hall sensor "rivet" legs are much harder than the aluminum I'm used to working with but I still used an machined rivet backup plate. Substituted a drift punch and ball peen hammer for the rivet gun. Cake. Just be cautious that the plastic body of the sensor is clear of the plate and peening tools.
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Monte, you mentioned in another thread, about a phenolic thrust washer in the washer stack-up on the drive shaft of the 'bean can', I ran across some scrap phenolic material at work today, it's .033 in. thick, think that this may be a suitable substitute for the the washer that's in the 'bean can' ?
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Monte, you mentioned in another thread, about a phenolic thrust washer in the washer stack-up on the drive shaft of the 'bean can', I ran across some scrap phenolic material at work today, it's .033 in. thick, think that this may be a suitable substitute for the the washer that's in the 'bean can' ?
Most likely would be as good or better than the OEM washer.
The phenolic washer is basically a spacer on the central shaft inside the can. It's located on the end near the drive tangs. In messing with a couple cans, I do not believe there is much strain on this washer. If it was under prolonged stress, it would likely be made of sterner stuff. It's definitely not used as an electrical insulator either.
I'll see if I can't "mike" the spare I have and post the thickness.
Monte
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Thanks Monte,
I've got enough scrap material, to make up about 30 washers, just to have on hand, seeing as the parts are no longer available .
This is the first I've seen this material used at work, so I don't know if this was just a one time use for this material to accomplish a modification or not . .
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... I ran across some scrap phenolic material at work today, it's .033 in. thick, think that this may be a suitable substitute for the the washer that's in the 'bean can' ?
OK, I just remembered I said I'd do this... I miked the fiber washer's thickness in several spots and the vintage washer showed 0.032, 0.0325 and 0.033 inches thick. You must have been born lucky. [smiley=thumbup.gif]
Monte
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OK, now how about some approximate dimensions for the inner hole, and the outer diameter ?
We've got a hole punch at work, and it makes very clean cuts in soft material like this .
There's 40 different size holes for punching a center hole out, then another 40 different size selections for cutting the outer diameter of the washer .
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OK, now how about some approximate dimensions for the inner hole, and the outer diameter ?
We've got a hole punch at work, and it makes very clean cuts in soft material like this .
There's 40 different size holes for punching a center hole out, then another 40 different size selections for cutting the outer diameter of the washer .
Stand by...
Here's the data you requested, Bob. The central shaft diameter at the point of the fiber washer is 0.489". The i.d. of the fiber washer measured 0.496-0.500". the washer o.d. is 0.932" with room to go as large as 0.980".
Start punching! Monte
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UPDATE: So the '81 let me down Thursday afternoon as I was ready to leave work. Ran the "parking lot tests" and they all pointed to the Bean Can. Grrr...
Called Rick Jones at Motorrad Elektrik on Friday to ask for his thoughts on my unlikely and way too early bean can failure. He was as baffled as I.
He did mention the possibility of the coil's HT leads being in contact with the wire bundle that pokes up out of the top engine cover. Said the Hall sender could fail with a heavy voltage spike that just might be generated by the close proximity of the HT lead.
Saturday morning, I pulled the tank and, whoa... the left plug wire was looped and laying on the three-wire bundle from the bean can. Moved the HT lead well away from the harness. Next, I pulled the can for inspection.
Double Whoa... The three-wire harness between the can and the terminal block was smashed. It had been pinched between the front engine cover and an interior web on the timing chain case. Thin does not begin to describe the insulated wires!
Grafted in OEM wire from a small stash of bean can parts, secured everything, hooked up the battery cable and the bike fired right up.
So. I don't know if the HT lead was the issue -could have been- but I'm pretty sure the paper thin wires were broken. At any rate the Hall sensor was not failed. It was the owner's error in routing and pinching wires. Back on the road and it did not cost a red cent.
BTW, Rick mentioned he no longer offers a bean can Hall sensor replacement service. He did say he would consider directing inquiries to me. I have replaced four sensors for four different bikes in the past few months. I have a supply of the Honeywell parts. If you have need for replacement services, give me a shout.
Monte
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Bummer, Dude! So that's where you have been. Let me suggest you call your new service Monte-rrad Elektrik. But eventually you're going to be out of bean can parts. You've given me some food for thought though since I just installed the new Dyna coil on the R65 this morning. Better go back and look at the wire routings.
Can't fire it up anyhow since I never could extract the main jet venturi from the carb body. It was galled beyond belief and PB Blaster didn't even begin to work. FWIW, a Easy Out tool does not work in a brass fitting. Looks like I'm going need to set it up on a mill and mill the blasted thing out and hope that I don't ruin the carb body.
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Monte, if you need to get more sensors, Newark Electronics sent me a 20% off voucher, ( only good for 30 days) after I purchased the 10 sensors in May of this year .
I was tempted to order more .
If you go to the Motorrad Elektrik site and check out what the sensor assembly on the oilheads is going for, it's a piece of stamped sheet metal, two sensors, and a short pigtail of wire, for about $220 each .
You could replace the sensors on those in under 30 minutes .
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$225.00 from Motorrad Elektrik for the dual Hall sensors that fit the R1100, 1150, and 850 4- valve models. Not much help for us Airhead bean can drivers.
I previously had purchased a half dozen Honeywell's from Newark. Right at $13.69 each. Plus, I already had two new units in the shop.
Rick also mentioned that he is about to release a new product that will completely replace the Airhead OEM bean can ignition trigger unit. Alpha is the unit's name. Has a digital advance feature instead of the weights. Utilizes the very same Honeywell Hall sensor as in the bean can. Unit price will hit $300.00 with ease.
I might wait for the Beta model. I learned not to purchase a Mk1- Mod1 (alpha) model of anything. [smiley=beehive.gif]
I'm going back together with another bean can this weekend.
Monte
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That fully electronic 'bean can' sounds like a quantum leap from the mechanical advance version, not that it's a bad piece of technology, but you can't get the parts for it anymore, without cannibalizing another unit .
Rick Jones puts out some reliable after market parts, this one should sell like the proverbial 'hot cakes' .
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One other route to go is to replace the bean can and the ignition module with the Omega system that is driven off the crankshaft. Only proviso is the compatability problem if you also use the Enduralast alternator. (although it has been solved by some people)
I have the Omega unit on my R75/6 and it works as advertised. YMMV