The New And Improved Unofficial R65 Forum V2
Technical Discussion => BMW Technical Q&A, Primarily R65 => Topic started by: weasel01 on July 10, 2009, 03:34:04 PM
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I was looking at Monte's picture essay on the timing chain replacement and noticed it said it was noisey.
The Clymer doesnt give a replacement period just says replace if timing is difficult and or noisey.
What is the noise like?
When I first start my bike in it's newly tuned state it fires up on the first blip of the starter and will idle almost immediatly and it sounds like mechanical perfection for about 5 minutes.
After it starts to warm up I notice a building noise level which seems like it's coming from the timing chain area?
It's like shshshshshshSHSHSHSHSHSHSHS with some associated rattling sound It's not terrible (yet).
Is this normal or do I have a candidate for replacement?
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At high manifold pressures -as semi-coasting down the road with no load on the engine- I'd have an awful screeching sound. A new timing chain kit from MotoBins had everything I needed for a great price.
My issues were: 1) Timing chain was worn but not badly so; 2) the hard plastic components on the chain tensioner and chain guide had begun to disintegrate. Combined, that created my noise issue.
It's all good now. Monte
PS: If the "S" mark on the flywheel is like "seeing double" when viewed under a timing light, chances are the timing chain is worn, wearing out and/or toast.
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Yes if you recall my confused posts about timing that was part of my issue the smark looked more like a smear than an accurate mark.
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"It's like shshshshshshSHSHSHSHSHSHSHS with some associated rattling sound It's not terrible (yet)."
nup wait till it goes shshshshshshsSHSHSHSHSHSclunk....then you know exactly when it SHOULD have been repaired.....
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"It's like shshshshshshSHSHSHSHSHSHSHS with some associated rattling sound It's not terrible (yet)."
nup wait till it goes shshshshshshsSHSHSHSHSHSclunk....then you know exactly when it SHOULD have been repaired.....
Good advice, that. And here's a helpful page from the 'lubber's personal service manual regarding torque values; Tighten 'er down until you feel it give, then back off a quarter turn. :D
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The source of the annoyong rattle is located exactly where the timing chain tensioner is located ..guess I'm gonna do that next.
I saw the kit listed earlier looks perfect.
Does motobins take forever?
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I usually get my order from Motobins about five-six business days after I place the order. They ship via Royal Air Mail. Monte
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So Amp,
Are you going to replace the while chain, or just the tensioner?
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Long as I'm diggin' in that deep may as well go ahaed and do it to it and knock the whole thing out.
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Monte, Were the marks on the sprokets easy to see and line up?
Also any signs of sprocket wear? what was the milage on your bike?
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Were the marks on the sprokets easy to see and line up?
There's an easy view of a 'dot' on the larger camshaft sprocket. The mark on the crank sprocket "scratch mark" is near impossible to see with the bearing assembly in place, so... With the left-hand piston at TDC and the cam sprocket 'dot' at 12 o'clock... Clean the crank gear sprocket at the 6 o'clock and add a dab of white paint adjacent the cam sprocket dot..
... any signs of sprocket wear? what was the milage on your bike?
Wear was minimal. Crank sprocket rotates 2x vs cam srocket so the crank bit is wearing twice as fast. Mine was ok. Mileage? Quien sabe? Neg function on odometer -it's an R65, right- and PO may or may not have changed chain.
Resource and Supplier Links:
Motobins <http://bmwmotorcycletech.info/timingchain.htm>
Snowbum <http://bmwmotorcycletech.info/>
Matt Parkhouse <http://www.airheads.org/content/view/211/98/>
Ray Brutti <http://www.airheads.org/content/view/170/98/>
Post your "questions yet to be discovered". We'll all help you through this chore. Monte
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Excellent, I'm going to order the t-chain kit from motobins today.
Should be here sometime next week which works out because I have to go to Nashville,Tn. Wed for the rest of the week.
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Amp, Do you have a rotor removal tool? Long, bolt-lookin' thing?
http://www.motoelekt.com/newaltbolt.htm
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Guess I gettin' that thing today too! thanks!
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Timing chain kit from England on the way!
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Amplifier,i have just fitted a new timing chain today because i had the exact same symptons as you,it would sound great until it warmed up and then it would sound as though there was marbles rattling around.now it is quiet all the time and i dont see double timing marks with the strobe light.dont do what i did and drop the chain link in the sump,DOH.two hours wasted.Go for it bud
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Stuff rags/paper towels/old sox/holey drawers, etc., into all of the openings in the block to prevent the wayward link from finding the sump!
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Justin, excellent tip!
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I found a tool on a website that Rob Valdez has recommended for ignition parts .
Chain puller tool that holds the ends of a drive chain, to aid in getting the master link installed .
Looks like it is for drive chains, but may also work on cam chains .
http://www.mikesxs.net/
It's under the tools section, part number : 35-0130 .
For $10US, not overly expensive, and could be one of the best $10 you have spent, if it makes the job easier .
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Interesting tool:
(https://bmwr65.org/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.mikesxs.net%2Fparts%2Fimg250%2F35-0130.jpg&hash=f937fdb4f18d7afb56f642305a57665ed6c1e997)
I used to wish I had something like that for my Triumph until I noticed that if I put one end of the chain in the rear sprocket hook and pull the other end up to it's hook I can rotate the rear wheel and the sprocket will pull the lower chain end up into place, making it easy to insert the master clip. I don't know if there's room behind the sprockets to do that on the BMW timing chain, though.
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My 1983 R65 making sounds having symptoms etc. similar to those described in above. Does engine have to be removed from frame to replace timing chain and tensioner?
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Engine can remain in but exhaust has to come off.
Ed, that's the way I used to do the chain on my Honda CB450.
Bob, if you look at my pic you'll see a "backwards installed" master link. I take the old link and put it in from the front to keep the chain together then I install the new link from behind (with a piece of welding rod superglued to it for a handle) which pushes out the one previously installed at the same time. For me this eliminates the fumbling and turns it into a couple minute job. You'll also see the little retainer installed over the tensioner shoe to keep pressure off spring.
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You need to heat the sprocket to remove it, apply the removal tool and torq it then heat the sprocket and it will pop off.
That sound could be a loose rotor, can check your charge sys to determine if it is.
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...You'll also see the little retainer installed over the tensioner shoe to keep pressure off spring.
Classy! My retainer for the tensioner plunger was a cheap pipe cleaner. ::) Monte
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Howdy all ,I'm back from a fun filled week of "work" in Nashville got back and found my timing chain kit from motobins 6 work days from order date...very cool.
I went for a nice ride after work today parked her in the garage and have started the disassembly process.
I've drawn the layout marked my wires and started removing things.
Here is where I'm hung up....the stator is frozen in the cover?
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You probably just need to tap on the stator with a soft faced hammer, to break its grip on the case, if the engine is still warm or hot, this may be adding to the problem .
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Ok a couple taps and right off it came.
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It just occured to me....I dont have the tool to take off the exhaust?
Is there a common tool that will work or am I ordering ....another ....specialty tool?
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Looks like you're going to need the exhaust nut wrench, most likely scenario, is to break off the fins on the nut if you don't use the correct tool .
Even with the tool, if the nuts have never been off before and had anti-seize applied to the threads, they may have to be cut off .
A common occurrence is that the nut loosens up, then tightens up again, if you continue trying to remove the nut at that point, good chance the threads on the head 'spigot' will be removed .
You will then be sending the heads or head out for repair .
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If you have never had the exhaust nuts off whilst the bike is in your care, cut them off. It is far cheaper that an exhaust thread repair. When you put the new ones on, use a bit of copper ease. ready for next time. And then you should never need to cut them off again.
Another order from Motobins I am afraid.
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Wow now I have opened a can of worms....
I'm sure they have never been off since being installed at the factory.
How do you cut them off without damage to the threads?
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Hacksaw, hammer and chisel.
1. Cut the exhaust nut across the thread - i.e. between a pair of 'fins' until you get deep enough to almost touch the threads on the heads. I.e. when you get close be careful. But even if you touch them, its no big issue - just stop there.
2. Get a chisel and mallet and hit the nut with a sharp tap on the cut you have just made, the blow will break the remaining mateial without wreaking the thread on the head.
3. Repeat on the other side.
The issue is the metals corroding and effectively welding themselves together +dirt and grit getting in. Lots of water and heat over a long period of time and there you have it. A couple of weeks and some penetrating fluid might get you out of it as well. But a nice new shiney set of nuts will show you up as someone who knows what he is about. ;)
Sorry to be the bearer and all that. But it is a risk think. Just how lucky do you think you are. Have you got $400 to have the threads fixed?
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Thanks Steve, I think I'm up to it!
BTW...LOVE YOUR R65 Cafe!
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One of the original heads on that machine had a knackered exhaust thread. Did not find out till the araldite melted and the nut started rattling.
My R100 nuts have not been of either. I'll wait till I need to take them off though. But I will be cutting them off!
Cheers
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Just a couple observations....
1)The finned nuts that are on it are not corroded at all they look almost new? Is it really neccesary to cut them w/o trying to wrench them off first?
2)is it not possible to remove the front cross pipe?
I know , I know wishfull thinking.
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It is a risk thing. You might get away with it. But just how lucky do you think you are?
You know the history of the bike better than I.
Have you got $400 to have the threads fixed?
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The front crossover pipe overlaps the header pipe by about an inch on each side, and I'm quite sure the pipe will be difficult to remove, I had to cut a slot on each side, and bend the pipe to get it loose from the header .
The first time you do this job, it can be a real pain, but once you get it apart, and apply anti seize to the areas, it's nowhere near the job the second time .
If you do cut across the threads, use a small file to 'dress-up' the threads, and then use the new exhaust nut to chase the threads, or if you have a thread file, use it instead .
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I'm not lucky at all so I will bite the bullet and order thge replacement nuts today.
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...But a nice new shiney set of nuts will show you up as someone who knows what he is about. ;)
Steve, you are the man!
Yo, Ampy... Call Re-Psycle for the exhaust nuts. I got a like-new pair from them for half-price. They are be-u-ti-mous with perfect threads.
Do like me and Mikey... I got the entire header and x-over pipes off my R65 as a complete unit. No difficulty. Sorta a BMW RubicsCube puzzle but it is doable deal.
Monte
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I'll check Re-psycle for future projects but I had already ordered a set of nuts from Bob's Bmw they had them in stock.
I guess tonight I will try my hand at nut sawing ...doesnt sound quite right does it?
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I guess tonight I will try my hand at nut sawing.
If you happen to have one of those close-quarters hacksaw blade holder thingy -HomeDepot, Lowes, local BigBox- they are the bomb for this chore.
Install the blade so that it cuts on the pull stroke. You'll have only a little space between the nut and cylinder head but a coarse cut blade speeds things along. You will feel the contact with the head stub threads... stop sawing.
Gently tap a cold chisel into the exhaust nut cut parallel to the saw cut; not downward into the threads. Go slow and protect the stub threads as best you can.
Monte
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I do have one of those close quarter hack saws and a chisel,a fresh keg of Sam Adams Boston Lager and a free evening.....off to the man cave!
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Hold off on the Boston Lager, until the nuts are cut off, or collateral damage me be in your future !!!!
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OK I've cut into the first nut down to where I think I feel the top of the threads.
I'm a little nervous about how hard to tap?
Am I tapping it around or am I looking for it to break?
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You want to break it, I've have never done this, as my threads stripped off with one mighty blow from a 25 pound dead blow hammer .
My best guess is that you should place the chisel so that you are loosening the nut when you hit it with a hammer .
Try not to let the chisel hit the thread area .
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You're wanting to s-p-r-e-a-d the exhaust nut; increasing its inside diameter and relieving the excessive pressure on the threaded stub and, hopefully, crack the old nut.
Chisel cutting edge goes into the front of the saw cut exhaust nut parallel to the stub threads but not nicking 'em. How hard do you hit it? Why, that's the nut to crack. Right? Sorry. Couldn't help myself. ;)
Sip slowly. Stay thirsty.
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Well as it turned out a friend stopped by early on and completely distracted me so I stopped.
Maybe tomorrow night....
Monte your loosing me when you say parallel to the stub threads?
Parallel to the stub threads to me means the broad end of the chisel
is perpendicular to the saw cut?
correct or the opposite?
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Put the chisel INTO the cut and a little rap with a hammer will split it and it'll practically remove itself!
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I had to cut one off on my LS just last week, it is easy to do, do not be too worried about it. Once most of the cut has been made, the chisel splits the alloy nut very easily. My nut had a bolt screwed into it to hold it onto the head, the PO was a country girl, I guess that is how you do it when you have to do something on your own. Now of course I find the threads totally nonexistant...she must have stripped it previously and the screw was just her way of continuing riding.
Get my frame back tomorrow morning after powder coating, then I can start the rebuild.
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...correct or the opposite?
Visualize the chisel in a longitudinal plane in relation to the bike's chassis. Do all you can to keep the chisel away from the easily damaged stub threads.
BTW, Motobins sells an exhaust nut replacement assembly that secures to a damaged cylinder head exhaust stub. Kinda funky looking but less expensive than the approx $400 price tag for a stub rebuild.
Monte
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Sounds like I was doing it right? It didnt budge at all. though..I guess I'm not tapping hard enough.
Or maybe I have the wrong chisel? I selected one with the broad edge about as long as the cut and slightly thicker than the kerf.?
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Should I have penetrating oil on this too?
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Sounds like I was doing it right? It didnt budge at all. though..I guess I'm not tapping hard enough.
Or maybe I have the wrong chisel? I selected one with the broad edge about as long as the cut and slightly thicker than the kerf.?
More kerf is good! A dead blow hammer is also less scary. Monte
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Alright guys you can now consider me a seasoned nut splitter from way back.
I borrowed a thicker kerf chisel from my shop placed it into the saw ct gave it a couple good whacks with my hammer and off it came!
Second one was off in under 20 minutes.
Both stubs revealed dirty but in tact threads YES!
Now on to the original job at hand ....timing chain!
here I go.
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Well done. It is worrying job if you have never done it before.
And at least you are safe from having to repair threads or having to put the different type of exhaust clamps on that will imediately identify your bike (to those in the know) that you have an exhaust thread issue. And if you ever came to sell it - thats a fair chunk off your asking price.
Make sure you clean the threads and put some copper-ease on the them when you put the new nuts on. This at least, is a job that you will not have to attempt again. Safe in the knowledge that your threads are good and you lubed the nuts last time they were off. Unless of course you buy another airhead ;)
Steve H
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I got the cover off and exposed the timing chain and found the noise maker...its the tensioner , it's worn all the way through to the metal and when I rotate the wheel to turn the engine over I can hear that annoying rattle.
hopefully tonight I can swap the chain and accociated parts.
I'm going slow on this part as I understand the possible damage if it's wrong.
I have the left piston at tdc the OT mark is lined up in my case hole and the dot on the big sprocket is at the noon position.
I cant see any mark on the cam sprocket but with the dot at noon as described but there is only one tooth on the cam sprocket that looks lined up ....thats the one I mark ...right?
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Yep.
You may end up rotating the engine shafts to get the clip back on, but as long as you keep the chain engaged and can return the marks to position, you're good to go.
Sparkle plugs out? Easier working without fighting engine compression.
PS: It, too, was the lame, worn out tensioner on my '81 that was creating the rattling. Use everything in the Motobins kit and ride happy. You may find the tensioner coil spring has gone short on you and is not applying correct pressure on the shoe. Maybe...
Monte
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Got the timing chain mounted and I'm saticefied the sprockets are in sync.
I've rolled the rear wheel in 5th gear several times no binding and the dots line up perfectly.
I'm ready to put it back together but I have a couple questions (of course).
1)Do I need to put oil on the new gasket first?
2)Is there anything to look out for on the timing can? alignment marks etc...?
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Did you get two paper gaskets, that look like washers ?
Don't forget to put them on, they seal the two bolts near the center of the timing case near the upper end, they go between the timing case and the front of the engine, put a dab of sealant to keep them on until the bolts are installed .
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No washer gaskets in my kit?
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No washer gaskets in my kit?
They're not much bigger than 1/4-inch flat washers. Should have been in the Motobins kit but if they've gone AWOL, just cut up your old case gasket using the spots where the screws pass through.
The small gasket/washers do not really seal anything. They act as spacers; same thickness as the case gasket and prevent any bending forces acting on the case cover as it is torqued down.
No need to oil the new gasket. Snowbum says don't put anything on the gasket as its thickness is OEM designed to position the large bearing just so. That said, I used a tiny dab of sealant to hold the paper washers 'cause spit didn't work.
May be after the horses have run outta the barn, but I put some reference marks on the bean can mounting tabs and the timing case to help get the can and engine close to timed position.
You're almost home. Press on. Monte
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OK that's what I had come up with too.
I have a couple pieces with the hole part in tact.
Also I did mark the bean can while the horses were still in the barn also took pictures and illustrated it., I just wondered if there was any thing special besides the o-ring?
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I just want t o double check torque values for the chain cover @5 ft/lbs?
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I can't find a torque specification for the bolts for the timing cover, anywhere in the shop manual .
5 ft/lb, sounds on the safe side, you can always snug them up a bit more if any leakage occurs .
Unless someone else can find a torque in some other manual .
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I read on snowbums torque listing "chain cover 5 ft/lbs" my clymer says
"tighten securely" im not experienced enough for that torque values really help.
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This thread is full of good information.
I reckon this thread should be in the FAQ section all is said and done.
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It's important to make sure they are all tightened to the same value and use a "logical torque sequence" if there is no torque sequence listed in the manual...
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Thanks Justin it just says to tighten them in a cross pattern like the head bolts.
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Yes, the oft mentioned "logical torque sequence". Tightening this way is supposed to reduce the likelihood of warpage.
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Ok got it all back together...quadruple checks on everything.
Put the tank on it hooked the battery back up and it started on the second blip of the starter.
I let it warm up then pulled out the timing light.
I only saw 1 "s" mark this time (signs of improvement) and the mark was easy to align.
Rolled it up to 3500 rpm and the "Z" mark was aligned perfectly.
Went for a good ride then hooked up the timing light again and it was still dead on!
Overall the engine is MUCH quieter and smoother the rattle clackle sound is gone completely.
These are my findings :
Tensioner was worn in 2 places one all the way to the metal and was bouncing.
The tensioner spring was 5 mm shorter than the new one.
The chain was almost 3mm longer than the new one.
The rubber guide was like new but I replaced it anyway.
Oh, and my shiney new exhaust nuts look real good!!
Thanks for the help guys!
I'm off for a ride!!!
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Sounds like a job well done !!!!!
Kick back and have cold one !!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Being the inquisitive person that I am, plus noticing the number of views and responses to Amp's Timing Chain Noise thread, I did some checking.
As of right now, for 2009, this thread ranks Number 3 in overall views (546) and is Numero Uno (71) in responses. Should any R65org members be contemplating replacing a chain, this thread will get you off to a good start.
Monte
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It has been really informative.
Without reading it I (as I am assuming others too) would have simply ordered the timing kit, then gone gung-ho into trying to fit the kit only to then discover the drama's with the exhast nuts.
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Once ampliflyer converts this into a Wiki article (with pics) it may very well become the authoritative reference for the first-time chain swapper!
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Guys I went out for a 3 hour nonstop ride through the prettiest horse country in the nation.
81f low humidity and a pleasant amount of cloud cover.
My bike rolled without hesitation , felt absolutely great.
No leaks at all.
The new tires are feeling great now... the tranny is shifting like clockwork...the engine feels powerful and smooth.
It sounds great ...cool throaty balanced tone.
Makes me feel good!
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Sounds like a job well done.
Glad you are happy.
Steve H
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If I were you, I'd buy an exhaust nut wrench. I got one at MAX BMW in NH for around $30.
Part of my annual maintenance routine is to take off the nuts and apply anti-seize to the threads on both the heads and the nuts. You should never have to deal with saws and chisels ever again.
This is a great thread. Thanks for sharing.
Chas Gross
Ellington, CT
1987 R65
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Coming close to doing this job and notice cam sprockets listed on motobins website.
Is it normal to need to replace these - or is just the chain kit enough?
[smiley=beer.gif]
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Your're probably going to have to take a good look at the sprockets, and determine if they require replacement or not .
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I thought that might be the case.
I like to have all the parts needed before I start a job so save yet another order, postage and time waiting.
Oh well I'll just order and hope the sprockets don't need replacing.
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Hey aussie Pete, i had wondered about that too.
For what it's worth my bike had approx. 37,000 miles and the timing chain and sprockets were stock.
The sprockets looked brand new.
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Cheers Amp.
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I replaced my timing chain around 45,000 miles, due to a vibration, turned out to be the beginnings of the transmission bearings going bad .
At that point in time, I saw no appreciable wear on the sprockets .
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Thanks Bob.
Also good to know.
My odo is reading 21,000km will probably be around 22,000km by the end of the week. Can definately add a 100,000km to that figure but realistically who know's as there was no history with my bike.
I'm more replacing it for peace of mind and for a quieter ride.
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I've got an '84 LS, with 91,000 miles (147,000 km) on it, and I know from the maintenance log that came with the bike, that the chain has never been replaced, so I know sprockets are probably going to be required as well as the over haul kit from Motobins, for the chain and tensioner assemblies .