The New And Improved Unofficial R65 Forum V2
Technical Discussion => BMW Technical Q&A, Primarily R65 => Topic started by: montmil on March 17, 2009, 11:11:49 AM
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I know this has been discussed previously however I can't locate the thread I'm looking for, so...?
My 1981 R65 oil filter is secured by: Cover plate, paper gasket, white O-ring and the metal shim. I'm using the "bendy" filter but that's not related to my question.
Is the paper gasket supposed to be used between the engine crankcase and the filter cover? I seem to recall some articles stating that the paper gasket is not required. I don't see why it would be deleted. Different BMW models? Little help here, please?
Oil pressure has always been good. No leaks or drip. I don't want to fix something if it ain't broke. ::)
I'm going to leave the engine "open" until I can confirm "gasket or no gasket". No sense wasting expensive dino oil. Thanks,
Monte
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Monte,
You have the parts sequence correct, paper gasket goes between the filter cover, and the engine case, o-ring, then the metal washer..
A debate remains between riders, as to remove the gasket or not.
Best that I can tell, at one point in time, and I don't know when, that there was some manufacturing variances, that the metal insert that the metal ring rests on, was put in to far, or the metal insert was not of the correct dimensions.
If it was to far in, the o-ring would not be compressed enough, to do it's job and lead to reduced oil pressure, and after a while engine bearing damage would occur.
I remember an article that stated the depth that the metal insert should be, but I have forgotten the exact dimension.
I personally have the original gasket on my filter cover, after 28 years it doesn't want to come off without a fight, so I leave it on.
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Thanks, Bob. I'm with you on this question.
BTW, I found the article that got me confused/concerned.
http://www.largiader.com/tech/filters/canister.html
Now off to the neighborhood Ace Hdwr to get a length of vinyl tubing. Will attach it to my plastic funnel and eliminate my usual oil change refill mess... fingers crossed.
Monte
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I believe there is a good discussion of this on snowbums site and ways of determining whether a gasket is needed. I personally don't use the gasket on any of mine...
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Read both the "large-a-dare" site info plus Raccoon Guy. Snowman left me confused with eye strain.
Did check several BMW dealers and the BMW OE oil filter "kit" -Part # 11009056145- includes the paper gasket, O-ring and shim plus the bendy Mahle OX37 oil filter. Chicago BMW has the best price at $16.02.
I kept the paper gasket.
Thanks for the responses, guys.
Monte
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I gave up on the paper gasket a long time ago, and have never been happier. But who knows what my new engine will like.
Metal ring against the engine, white o-ring against the cover.
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Got a veneer caliper? Measure the distance from the outside surface of the engine case to the edge of the metal oil filter canister. How deep is it? Don't have one? [I suspect you do] Borrow or buy a cheapie this one will do and you'll use it again http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/Displayitem.taf?itemnumber=98563
Then ya need to do some math. What your shooting for is a gap of about 3.1-3.8mm to squash the O ring in. you'll be creating this gap using the cover gasket [or not] and metal shims. Is your canister depth 3.0 or less? Yer gonna need that paper gasket. Get an accurate measurement & I can tell ya what you'll need to use.
rich
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Yes, Rich is on the right track - if your internal canister depth is less than 3.0mm then the paper gasket is used on the outer cover to take up some extra space and avoid over-compressing the white O ring.
The paper gasket is also used with earlier models with a center bolt in
the middle of an inner cover, or in certain cases with oil coolers. It does get annoyingly complex for what should be a simple, routine task!
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Monte, don't buy the BMW filters anymore, get the Mahle filters. They are the OEM for the BMW filter and only cost a bit more than $10.
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Monte, don't buy the BMW filters anymore, get the Mahle filters. They are the OEM for the BMW filter and only cost a bit more than $10.
I'm using the Mahle OX37 two-piece "bendy" filter.
I have a nice vernier caliper and will take measurements next time on the 81. I'll measure the 83 when it's time for the next change.
BTW, Snowbum sez 4K miles is a good interval between changes. I can change oil at a particular mileage or by engine run time. My cool Vapor digi system has a feature like an aircraft Hobbs meter. The Vapor ART (Absolute Run Time) is something to consider if you do a lot of in-town riding with start-stop-idle in traffic riding.
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I just changed my oil on the weekend.
Bought a kit from munichmotorcycles in Perth, it came with the gasket.
But the white o-ring was replaced with a black one in the kit.
When I pulled it apart, metal washer against the case then o-ring. Gasket between cover and case.
When I drained the oil, it was VERY thin, I bought some mineral 20W50 and put that in, engine is now sounds much less clunky.
I'm a bit worried though, I ran the engine with the dip stick out and there's definitely pressure back into the sump, the puffing air from the oil filler hole felt like I had the spark plug removed with the engine running. Pressure bypassing the rings methinks.
While I'm at it is the oil level checked with the dipstick screwed back in or just resting on it's shoulder?
Also when doing up the last bolt it never nipped up as such, firm pressure against a stripped thread. AAAARGH. It hasn't leaked yet, but I've bought some permatex liquid stripped thread repair, and might give that a go this weekend just to be safe.
John
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John,
Measure the oil level with the dispstick cap unscrewed and resting on the shoulder. It might not be as bad as you think with the pressure thing - I think all these engines have some amount of crankcase pulses. Do make sure that your crankcase breather hose isn't blocked up. ARe you seeing a significant amount of engine oil in the air filter or carbs ?
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Monte, don't buy the BMW filters anymore, get the Mahle filters. They are the OEM for the BMW filter and only cost a bit more than $10.
Justin,
Who are you getting your filters from, the last filter I got from the local independent BMW near me,was charging around $19 for a hinged oil filter for oil-cooler equipped bikes.
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I used to get them from Eurotech Motorsports but they sold all of their Airhead business to flugelnus.com and they are $12.50 for the "bendy" and $10.95 for the straight over there. I see that Euro Motoelectrics carries filters and claims they are OEM but I am waiting for a response as to brand...
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Anyone have any experience with the Wix brand of filters for the R65?
Monte
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Automotive mechanics have a very high opinion of Wix filters for automotive applications but I have never seen/used one for an Airhead.
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Opinions? Free shipping with purchase of either two or three kits.
Monte
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Parts-Accessories_Motorcycle-Parts-Accessories__2-BMW-Oil-Filter-Kits-R100-R90-R80-R75-R65-R60-R50-R45_W0QQitemZ260375538104QQddnZPartsQ20Q26Q20AccessoriesQQadiZ2863QQddiZ2811QQadnZMotorcycleQ20PartsQ20Q26Q20AccessoriesQQcmdZViewItemQQptZMotorcycles_Parts_Accessories?hash=item260375538104&_trksid=p4506.c0.m245&_trkparms=72%3A1171%7C65%3A12%7C39%3A1%7C240%3A1318#ht_7024wt_928
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Since our filters are not made like a spin on filter is I would not think that thoughs filter would be a problem to use.
Don
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I will probably always buy Mahle from one source or another.
But that is just me, and I can be quite irrational at times.
I've seen pictures of filters that crushed under pressure. Since the ones in the eBay store are 2-piece type, that might not be an issue. But what about quality of filtering?
Also for the record, I switched to the 2-piece OEM quite a long time ago, as well - for the inherent strength.
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Hey Montmil,
Used to use the paper gasket which sometimes leaked and sometimes not. After measuring the distance between the outside edge of the motor and the lip on the canister I determined (al la Snowbum) that two shims were required. I have not had a leak since - throwing that paper gasket away. And Im no longer trying to overtorque those small bolts.
BTW - I used a tire tread depth gage to measure the depth of the lip of the canister.
+1 on the Wix filters. Here is the link to the filter -
http://www.wixfilters.com/filterlookup/PartDetail.asp?Part=24945
#24945 is the part number for the bendy filter (which I like)> :)
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Thanks, Bill. The eBay seller is a Wix filter sales operation. Believe I'll get a two-pack for future use. They include the shims and O-rings with the filter plus my little dab of Scotch blood likes the no tax-no shipping charge.
Monte
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Hey Monte - I checked with the local Nappa dealer here & they have the same hinged filter - made by Wix, for Nappa - with the o-ring & gasket(not sure about the shim) for $11.49. Part # ps4945. Has anyone tried these?
Bill Conquest
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Dang! Good call, Bill. I'd tried NAPA while sourcing air filters for the R65's and forgot to try them for the oily filter. My local NAPA always gives a 15% discount. :'(
Monte
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I took up monte's ebay store link and bought there 2-pack oil filter kit.
My local NAPA store is not well stocked, and orders often take a week to get in. I bought the 2-pack oil filter kit on ebay on Friday, and the filters were in my mailbox on Monday morning - that was good service !!
They appear to be as sturdy/well made as the other bendy filters, with possibly an extra few pleats of filter/greater surface area, which I presume is to help compensate for the loss of filtering area from having to make the joint in the middle. In any case, I think they'll do just fine.
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Rob,
I just changed my oil and filter this weekend. I've only used BMW filters so far. This last filter I replaced was a two-piece/bendy type and even one half of it had collapsed, so I'm not sure if these are stronger or not. I noticed that it collapsed in the area where the outer sheath was not covering it, but I don't know if that was just a coincidence or not.
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Check out Beemer Boneyard, beemerboneyard.com, for Fram oil filter deals. Five Fram filters for airheads without oil coolers for $25. Ten crush rings for $4.00 and a pack of paper gaskets for $6.00.
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Fram are trash, period. Cheap filter media, small amount of media, etc. All "professional" auto mechanics I know will not use a Fram oil filter in anything - period!
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Justin I value your mechanical knowledge, however I think my Ford F150 with 310,000 miles would not support that claim, at least in my humble opinion. It's my experience that frequent oil changes are really the key to a long and healthy engine life.
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Gotta go with Bengt on the Fram filter issue. This topic has been beat to death on my Cabriolet group website. Lots of trash talk but engineering data trumps the, "My buddy knows a mechanic who says...".
I use 'em in my wife's new Cadillac Northstar -a Christmas present for her this year- plus my Cabriolet and Ford F150. 'course I change oil and filters every 90 days. Cabrio is 23 years old, F150 is 14 years young.
Monte
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A friend of mine owns a garage and has cut open and compared Fram and Wix filters and he said the difference in quality it apparent. I also seem to remember a web site that did the same for the Beemer filters and the OEM filter had considerably more filter area. I have since went back to using OEM filters - Mahle for the Beemers, Mann for the Volvo, and Mopar for the 'Cruiser...
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This is a no longer actively updated page that looks into some oil filters for motorcycles. Although Airhead filters were not investigated I see no reason to not assume that if Brand X markets a cheaply made filter for a Whatever 3000 then it might hold true for others...
http://www.tobycreek.org/oil_filters/index.shtml
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I stay with OEM filters for the Honda Civic, Mahle filters for both BMW bikes and cage, and AC/Delco for the Trans Am.
They only get changed about once a year on average.
If you don't do this, you may want to cut the filter apart on the airhead bikes, just to see if there is any accumulation of debris in the filter pleats.
I have a next door neighbor, that is an engineer for Honeywell, she works for what at one time was AiResearch, as it was called when Allied-Signal owned it, and Fram was a subsidiary of Allied-Signal, the comment, she made about Fram filters, was at least don't use their oil filters.
But I too used them for many years before learning this.
My father used K-Mart oil filters for 25 years, and never had an issue with an engine, so go figure !!!
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Here is a pic of the WIX kit -- includes everything. The cover gasket is 1mm thick (I don't use this). The kit includes the drain plug crush washer (Bonus). The filter uses a harder rubber than the stock BMW. I let you know how it goes. These filter are supposedly good down to 20 microns. I don't know how this compares to other filters.
About $12 with tax from O'Rilley Autoparts...
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Looks nice, Wix filters are generally liked by mechanics so this might be a good alternate. Different color O-ring and a decent price for the "kit" with all the extra bits - about the same price as a "nekkid" Mahle filter...
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The Wix filter package, no matter where you buy it, has everything you need. Change oil in a couple bikes and you can begin building up your own stores of shims, etc. Monte
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I'm doing my first oil change on the r65 and have hit an 'interesting' problem. I was going to use one of the many filters which came with the bike. The filters supplied with the bike are branded Domi Racer.(https://bmwr65.org/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi213.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fcc73%2Fambrose78%2FBMW%2520R65%2FIMG_0631.jpg&hash=764591434fcec0aa3976d54fc3f7b58f2f9eaead)
Pulled out the old oil filter and it looks different to the domiracer filters.
The domi racer filters appear to be similar length to the old filter but they don't have any rubber grommets on the end of the filter. See pic
(https://bmwr65.org/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi213.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fcc73%2Fambrose78%2FBMW%2520R65%2FIMG_0627.jpg&hash=551e7a4d28b9f1dab955a961199edbe075238105)
Has anyone seen these domiracer oil filters before?
What is the purpose of these rubber grommets? does it matter if they aren't there
Can I use these domi racer filters or will it kill the engine?
Also I couldn't see any other orings. Just the black one behind the metal shim on the cover
(https://bmwr65.org/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi213.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fcc73%2Fambrose78%2FBMW%2520R65%2FIMG_0629.jpg&hash=f9a787b9a0c6e1a389d5fe94189a6b5886818428)
is this the only oring? Or am i missing one?
Cheers
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Aussie, the newer model filters have the rubber seal attached to the filter canister. Older versions required a loose rubber ring that often got left -accidentally- in the filter cavity.
If you don't have the correct rubber ring to fit over the stub down in the canister cavity, you may need to purchase a later model filter or locate the correct seal. Your filter package appears to be a Taiwanese product of unknown vintage?
Monte
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It should fit snugly but you shouldnt need a ton of effort to get it in place.
My first filter change was tough as I got the filter for the oil cooler type and didnt know it ...it almost fit but was just a hair too long.
The correct filter (w/rubber tip)fits just right.
Look inside to make sure an old oring isnt still inside the filter cavity.
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Good points, Amps. And the bendy filters make the changing chore oh so simple.
Monte