The New And Improved Unofficial R65 Forum V2
Technical Discussion => BMW Technical Q&A, Primarily R65 => Topic started by: clouseau on July 31, 2009, 07:31:54 PM
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For both the ICU (bean can) AND the coil to be bad?
I was sitting at a light and the bike went dead. I knew it wasn't getting spark. The mechanic says my coil and my ICU is bad. Would both go bad at the same time? It was running great, then poof... Nothing.
This ICU is $500 new. I may see if Re-Cycle has one.
I mentioned the Dyna Coil as a replacement and the mechanic says that the Dyna Coil gives off too much resistance to the rest of the ignition system and puts a strain on it. I'm not sure about that. Does anyone know definitively?
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First off, if you have a multi-meter, check the primary resistance of the coil, it should be around 1.5 ohms, the secondary should be around 11-13 K ohms .
If you still have the black and gray OEM coil, it's time to replace it .
http://motoelekt.com/ignition.htm
The Dyna 'Brown' coil has 1.5 ohms primary resistance, just like the OEM coil .
The ICU, is the ignition control module under the seat, not the 'electronic bean can', the component that is bolted to the front of the engine .
It's also available from Motorrad Elektrik, and Euro Motoelectrics for $60 and $40 respectively .
The 'electronic bean can' can also be repaired by Motorrad Elektrik for about $175, plus shipping .
A bit of trouble shooting is in order, before you start changing expensive components .
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Put your mechanic on hold for a minute...
Are you running the original Bosch Crack-O-Matic coil? Pull the fuel tank off and visually inspect the ignition coil for tiny, almost invisible cracks. They could be on the ends -as mine- or along the length. Wipe off the coil and use a magnifying glass and inspection mirror if necessary.
(https://bmwr65.org/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi196.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Faa1%2Fmontmil%2FBMW%2520R65%2FOrigCoil01.jpg&hash=a447270ec5268e3d44ba4a6c971f625f7143d9b3)
The brown Dyna coil will be happy on your R65. Many R65 forum members swear by this product, not at it as with the Crack-O-Matic Bosch. Rick Jones at Motorrad Elektrik will get you set up. About $90.00.
http://www.motoelekt.com/index.html
(https://bmwr65.org/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi196.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Faa1%2Fmontmil%2FBMW%2520R65%2FWiring02.jpg&hash=53f6181377572b7e937802130e46e0a29129a90d)
The Ignition Control Unit (ICU) is a small, solid state device attached just aft of the coil. Note the black-colored ICU attached to the aluminum heat sink. Spot mine between the bit of red tape visible on the left and my Dyna coil on the right.
The ignition trigger unit is commonly referred to as the Bean Can. It lives under the front engine cover. That's the $500.00 part.
A simple coil and ICU test would be to pull a spark plug, ground it against the cylinder head and turn the ignition on. Toggle the bar-mounted kill switch off and on. If you see a spark, your coil/ICU is OK and your problem is likely a failed Hall sensor in the beano can.
Try these simple and free checks 'n tests then report back in. We'll try and get you going without spending too much of your money. ;)
Monte
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When you perform the resistance measurements of the coil with your multimeter, it would be best to do this with the the wires from the ICU and the sparkplugs disconnected, just so that you get an accurate reading of the coil itself, and not anything attached which might be on the fritz.
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Thanks Bob!
My mistake, it's the "bean can" not the ICU that is supposedly bad.
So the specs on the Dyna are exact to BMW?
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If you can confirm the trigger unit / Hall sensor is bad, I believe this can is still available. Offer $200 and Jim will probably let it go home with you.
http://www.beemerbits.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=21&products_id=45
Monte
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I paid a visit to the mechanic yesterday... My coil is badly cracked.
The used coil he wants to put on the bike is the newer style, not the crack-o-matic. He's offering $100 for it and claims it is not that old; from a wrecked R65LS.
I took the Ignition Trigger Unit with me. I may just get the hall sensor and do the job myself.
There happens to be a used "bean can' on on ebay at the moment that is @ $30. We'll see how much it goes for... I may bid on that and rebuild mine during any downtime.
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So your trusty mechanic wanted to sell you a new coil and a pricey bean can? Now you come back to him with some proper R65.org technical questions and he's all over helping you by offering you a new/used coil for only $100.00? Extremely rare that the coil and Hall trigger would fail simultaneously.
A brand new shiny Dyna for your bike is $90.00 plus a few bucks for shipping. It's a very simple and empowering DIY replacement chore. Rick's Motorrad Elektrik instruction sheet is clearly written and illustrated.
Should you decide on the used BMW part, I'd insist that the mechanic include installation in the C-note price. If he won't, I'd walk home and call Rick. He's toll free. [smiley=thumbup.gif]
BTW, I wouldn't even consider buying a bean can from him. Here's a couple links that will show you the dis- and reassembly of the bean can. It is fiddly but doable.
Monte [smiley=2cents.gif]
http://datchew.smugmug.com/gallery/6051788_snUvg//379214833_uTvUM#379214833_uTvUM
http://file:///Volumes/MONTE%231/BMW%20R65/R65.Electric&Ignition/BeanCanPartsPics/Rebuilding%20BMW%20IgnitionTriggerUnit.webarchive
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$100US, for a used OEM BMW coil, I would pass on that deal, and just order a Dyna 'Brown' coil From Motorrad Elektrik for $90 plus $6 shipping, as the upgraded red and black OEM coil, isn't a lot better than the original .
The Hall Effect sensor in the 'bean can' is available from Newark Electronics, the original Honeywell part number is : 2AV54, Newark part number : 96F1986 .
Cost for a single sensor is about $14, plus about $7 shipping .
http://www.newark.com/honeywell-s-c/2AV54/hall-effect-magnetic-sensor/dp/96F1986
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Y'all seem to keep forgetting about Newark's minimum order amount which is $20 or $25, IIRC + UPS shipping. At least that's the way it used to be...
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Ddefinitely get the new Dyna Brown coil kit from Motorrad Elektrick for $90 before throwing that kind of money on any used coil. The Dyna coil will definitely be an upgrade over the OEM coil.
I'd get the new coil in first, and see how things go from there. And you can easily test the bean can yourself with a battery, resistor, and a multimeter and some alligoator clip leads.
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To be clear, my mechanic never offered to replace my bean can. He just called me with the results of his diagnosis. He told me the new price and suggested I find one on my own since it is so expensive.
Additionally, he never tried to sell me a new coil either. He merely stated that he has the newer style from a wrecked R65. My coil is clearly cracked. I've been talking to him about Dyna and he spoke to his electronics guy (someone not affiliated with his shop) and that guy stated that while Dyna coils will work, they put unecessary strain on the rest of the ignition system that BMW coils do not. I find that a bit hard to believe and he didn't argue with me on the point, since it was not really his opinion.
His only answer to my question of why both would be bad is that he swapped out the bean can AND coild with a different ones and it worked.
There's a hall effect sensor on ebay going for $20. I have no real way of testing my bean can and may just dive into the job of replacing the sensor on my own.
When I voiced my concern about the price of the troubleshooting, he said the time invested into discerning the bad parts was negligible. The bike is there for a main seal replacement as well and that's where I am going to get stuck where the sun don't shine. He'll most likely waive the ignition labor.
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OK, so what's the procedure for testing the "bean can" with a multimeter?
I may just go grab the parts tonight.
I also found this:
http://robfrankham.co.uk/bike/vane_switch_tester_circuit.htm
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Rob really knows his way around this stuff and you can pretty much take what he says as gospel. At least that's been my experiences with him in the past...
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Personally, I would replace the coil, and then go from there .
As far as trouble shooting, as a mechanic, I would replace one part at a time, starting with the most likely suspect part, and a coil is easy to check out with a multimeter .
The sensor in the 'bean can' is a quite reliable component, whereas the OEM coil is a known problematic part .
Again about the Dyna coil, the '84 LS that I acquired about 6 weeks ago, the OEM coil went bad in 1986, and the previous owner installed two automotive type coils, and proceeded to put 75,000 miles on the bike in that configuration without causing any issues with other ignition components .
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I have read that some later or aftermarket coils aren't very compatible with the original ICU, but it hasn't struck me as a very conclusive argument. That means that I can't remember it exactly, but it didn't really persuade me.
I have an aftermarket ICU from Rocky Point (about 35 bucks) and the BMW replacement coil for my R65 and it all seems to be working great. I'd guess it's only been about 15,000 miles though. I still have my stock ICU as a spare as it did not turn out to be the problem I was chasing.
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I have read that some later or aftermarket coils aren't very compatible with the original ICU, but it hasn't struck me as a very conclusive argument. That means that I can't remember it exactly, but it didn't really persuade me.
I have an aftermarket ICU from Rocky Point (about 35 bucks) and the BMW replacement coil for my R65 and it all seems to be working great. I'd guess it's only been about 15,000 miles though. I still have my stock ICU as a spare as it did not turn out to be the problem I was chasing.
Ed, I also recall reading similar threads about the incompatibility of certain automotive-style coils as BMW MC replacements. First time I pulled the fuel tank on my recently purchased 1983 R65, I found two blue Bosch ignition coils hose-clamped to the frame. Quite the ghetto install, it was. Bike ran fine but I promptly replaced them with a new Dyna. Talked with Rick Jones about the odd install and he agreed that the Dyna was, by far, the better idea.
Also, the Bosch ICU component -located just aft of the coil- is a commonly used bit on several German autos and can be purchased for far less money than the parts box branded BMW. I have a cross reference list... somewhere.
Cuzin Monte
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The ICU looks the same as on my Volvo 240 as well. As an aside, I'm pretty sure my '81 R100RT has a pair of "automotive style" coils in what looks to be a factory configuration. I'm thinking that if the load that the coil presents to the ICU is the same then the ICU probably won't care (or know) that a "BMW approved" coil isn't installed...
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snip I'm thinking that if the load that the coil presents to the ICU is the same then the ICU probably won't care (or know) that a "BMW approved" coil isn't installed...
That's what I think, too. I can't remember who was making the argument; I want to say Oak on the Airlist but I don't know.
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I remember discussion about the "new" stock coil needing a "new" ICU due to the new and improved coil not matching up with the older ICU. But, people who did not change ICU have never had any problems that I know of...
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I have the original ICU on my '81, and I ran the 'upgraded' red and black OEM coil for 11 years, before it quit, and I have been using the Dyna 'brown' coil for about 4 years now without ant problems .