The New And Improved Unofficial R65 Forum V2
Technical Discussion => BMW Technical Q&A, Primarily R65 => Topic started by: its_only_me on March 11, 2007, 07:20:08 AM
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Today started bright and sunny here in the UK, and it really was a day for riding rather than fettlin the bike, but I so want her on the road for easter that work must be done. With that in mind I wanted one last look at the brakes before the ministry test (MOT).
on removing the rear wheel I was faced with quite an oily mess with contaminated brake shoes and hub, on cleaning the full area with brake cleaner I was none the wiser as to where it had come from and there being no obvious leaks, I set to fitting the new shoes. Here I hit my first problem, the new supplied springs were way shorter than the original ones fitted, so I had to re-use the old, although there really was no need not to as the condition was fine.
I then cleaned the brake drum and inner wheel area, before giving the brake drum a quick rub over with emmery cloth, another clean with brake cleaner, before refitting the wheel and adjusting the brake.
I then turned my attention to the front calipers again, when I did the front brake service I noticed that the caliper pins were rusty, so I ordered new ones to be fitted today, only they too were wrong as you can see...
(https://bmwr65.org/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fkevindean.zenfolio.com%2Fimg%2Fp852702221.jpg&hash=9fd4fdb57c07005f11648f01459950f7a1b78322)
Isn't it funny, I have had nothing but good service from motorworks until this weekend, the brake springs were/are the wrong ones, and so are the new caliper pins I ordered, nowhere near the right size?
I wonder if this is because it is an LS model and they are sending generic R45/65 parts? have any of you found this problem when servicing your R65LS brakes??
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Just guessing here...there were two different type brake calipers used on R65's between '78 and '84 - ATE in the early years, and Brembo later. But reading an old post of yours, I see you knew that...
Anyway, I wonder if you have pins for the ATE.
I doubt if function is impaired by the rust. But I like nice, shiny parts when rebuilding, too.
I don't remember a short pin on my ATE's. Mine have two same-length pins holding the pads in place. What are the short ones for?
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I did a search on RealOEM.com, and found the part number for tension springs for the LS rear brake and came up with : 34211242610, the R65 part number is : 34211457091. The only part number for the front brake pins for an LS are : 34211238059 and that is a 3 part kit 2 pins and something that looks like a flat spring. Hope it helps you out.
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I just rebuilt the front Brembos on my '82 LS and the "mounting hardware kit" consisted of two long pins, a short pin with centered groove, and a flat anti-rattle spring. The parts shown in your pic look similar, but longer, so I am wondering if they might be for the larger Brembo calipers such as those used on the R80, R100, etc.?
Your rear shoes can get oily by either a leaky rear seal (where the wheel splines up) or the O-rings that seal the brake actuating rod are shot. Where this actuating shaft sticks through the final drive actually goes through where the gear lube is and the shaft has a couple of machined grooves with O-rings. I think Sue has had to replace these...
Oh, I split this from the original thread as it is technical in nature.
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Just curious, Justin, where does the short pin go?
I just found out I will be ordering new pads before I install my new rotor, so that will be another week or two.
I only have a few thousand miles on a new set of pads I installed a year ago, but the differences in the old rotor and the new one are so great, I wouldn't even consider using the "old" pads.
I found this photo of the other side of my stock rotor, from Ken's rally last Spring:
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Rob,
It's works in conjunction with the anti-rattle pin, to eliminate, well, the pads rattling around! ;D To get a better idea of how they are installed I invite you review the Brembo rebuild I did at:
http://suraklyn.com/yabb/YaBB.pl?num=1169500630
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My ATE's don't have that short, center pin. And the spring is a different design, also.
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Rob,
The different shaped spring on the ATE's seems to try and combine the Brembo's spring and short pin in one piece.
It's only me...
Do the new pins you have fit? I see the long one on the left is almost identical except shorter on the top end. Move it down a quarter inch and all the grooves line up as well as locking ring. But is it now actually too short or is the end of the pin just recessed a little further than you had before?
The short pin is longer but does it still fit in the caliper?
Justin is right about looking at your rear oil seal and the brake rod which on the 82 , should have three O-rings I think, plus a thin felt pad on the outside of the brake rod where the actuating arm attaches.
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It's only me...
Do the new pins you have fit? I see the long one on the left is almost identical except shorter on the top end. Move it down a quarter inch and all the grooves line up as well as locking ring. But is it now actually too short or is the end of the pin just recessed a little further than you had before?
The short pin is longer but does it still fit in the caliper? No Too wide
Justin is right about looking at your rear oil seal and the brake rod which on the 82 , should have three O-rings I think, plus a thin felt pad on the outside of the brake rod where the actuating arm attaches.
I will look again at the rear hub area 500 miles in, I have bought three o-rings, but where is the oil seal located?
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Ok then here we are again, I have taken some more pictures, so this should quell any confusion over pin length, this time I have lined up the stop ring....
(https://bmwr65.org/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fkevindean.zenfolio.com%2Fimg%2Fp211274666.jpg&hash=39027132291010bdcb896d392a0a5bdcba51d890)
(https://bmwr65.org/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fkevindean.zenfolio.com%2Fimg%2Fp148839188.jpg&hash=bafc92d7d14345538d6fbe7851d3685eaa7f54ce)
and in answer to the question above the tension pin (little one) is too long to fit in the caliper groove. These pins are for another type of Brembo? not for the R65LS
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I would get your supplier on the phone.
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It's only me...
I will look again at the rear hub area 500 miles in, I have bought three o-rings, but where is the oil seal located?
Looking at the final drive with wheel off and brake shoes removed. (I know you had just put them on. ;) ). There is a cover with 8 or so bolts around it. The wheel drive splines comes out of this. Unbolt the nuts. At around 2pm and 8pm you will see two blank 6mm threaded holes. Use a couple of spare bolts in these holes, tighten evenly and it will force the cover off the final drive base. You might have a gasket under here, but both my R65 and R80 didn't , just gasket sealer. Once the cover is off, use something to knock out the oil seal and tap a new one in. Fiddly because it is a large oil seal, but doable. Try and use a large flat surface and tap on that.
Note when buying the oil seal, there is a different one for mono and dual shock bikes.
If your bike has a gasket, put another gasket on, if not I would suggest just gasket cement.
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Be very careful when you put the cover back: It might be a good idea to place the cover in your freezer overnight and warm the hub up to appr. 160F when you put the cover back. Do not try to pull the cover in place by tightening the bolts but place a 4by4 piece of wood on top of the cover and tap it gently in place with a mallet. Then tighten the bolts to the prescribed torque which is 18N-m or 13 ft.-lb. Do not overtighten or they may break in the seat which is very annoying - no, do not ask!
greetings from north where the season has just begun [smiley=grin.gif]
trolle
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Let us address the three small o-rings for a moment.
I have never replaced mine, but I am sure they need it.
Does one have to remove the inner cover in order to get the brake actuating shaft out?
I do know that before you remove the brake lever from the splined shaft on the outside of the final drive, you should mark their relative location so you can put them back in the same orientation.
http://www.w6rec.com/duane/bmw/rear_brake/index.htm
(https://bmwr65.org/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.w6rec.com%2Fduane%2Fbmw%2Frear_brake%2Frod3.jpg&hash=d263b790da2673bef4445fcf8702a10c1de03737)
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My brake shaft only had slots for 2 o-rings. I guess there is an upgrade (maybe it's the LS version) that will take 4. So I have two extra now.
You should probably mark the relationship between the shaft and the final drive housing, as well as the lever, just to be sure. Though there's only two ways (I think) the shaft would even work.
You don't have to remove the inner cover, just the tire and brake shoes. I can't remember how I forced the shaft out but I know I didn't break anything for once. :D
Is yours leaking oil? I find my rear brake works better without the oil, though I don't think it will last as long.
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I guess that if one finds any signs of oil in the brake area, you really really ought to
disassemble the final drive housing and examine the gears - who knows how long it has run
and how low on oil.. I cringe to think as rear drive assemblies often aren't cheap.
I wish you the best of luck !
:)
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Let us address the three small o-rings for a moment.
Does one have to remove the inner cover in order to get the brake actuating shaft out?
No, as you correctly commented, mark the brake arm and remove. Then as Ed said, just remove brake shoes and tap the brake shaft through. It is only held by the stiction of those O-rings, so you could almost do it with your fingers. Our '81 R65 has 3 rings, my 'early '81 G/S only had two, so I had another one machined in.
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I have heard (Sue?) of folks finding only 2 o-rings in there, and adding the third one. But I don't think Sue had any machine work done on her LS shaft.
I am concerned about mine because of oil on the outside (RH) of the final drive. I haven't had the rear wheel removed since at least 1 year ago, maybe longer. The brake works, though.
I have a parts list building for payday, Thursday. I should add three o-rings to it.
(https://bmwr65.org/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fim1.shutterfly.com%2Fprocserv%2F47b6dd02b3127cce97b7024e04ea00000000408AcOGLZo2ctf&hash=bc93dd0c1803e434bbeec195e247d5c9a7aa6890) (http://www.boxerworks.com/store.php)
(no financial compensation)
(no, I'm not going to make that a regular sig. Just where this parts order is going...via phone/email...)
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Cut & paste from It's Only Me[/b] in General Announcements:
I have decided to do the seals in the bevel drive this weekend, is this the big seal you were all talking about....
http://www.bmwandguzzispares.co.uk/bmw/products/product.php?f=i&code=BA_15_20_EA_60&shnew=New&model=R45%2F50%2F65%2F75%2F80%2F90%2F100+%282+valve%29&shnewcode=15&part=Transmission&sub_part=Bevel+box+seals&modelcode=20&partcode=EA&source_code=BA_15_20_EA_60
Bevel box output seal (1955-1984 not GS/ST) | TRA04343
I already have the three small o-rings for the brake actuating rod.
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have any of you done this oil seal replacement, as reading the Clymer on the subject, it seems a lot more work than I first thought, they go on about using a heat gun to remove the cover, shims, and gaskets etc. I can't seem to find the corresponding gasket for sale?
I thought this was just going to be pull off the cover, knock out old oil seal, clean up area, install new oil seal, refit cover, job done. :-/
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Did you see Chris in B.C. 's post near the bottom of page one of this thread (or version of this thread...)?
That is about all I know about it. I have not been in there, before.
Between the freezer, and a heat gun, I would thing it wouldn't be too impossible.
Can you get a heat gun out to the street? I'm not sure I would use a propane torch on it. (portability).
Wait for others to chime in.
Feel free to post a query on http://www.boxerworks.com or Motobins. Lots of experience there.
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I did it and it is not that difficult but as I mentioned in a previous posting: be very careful when replacing the cover not to overstress the bolts.
I used a heatgun to warm the housing and put the cover in my freezer (remember to tell your wife ::) ). I did not take the final drive off which made things a little akward and if you do not mind the extra work, my advice is to do so. Working with the final drive on a bench makes it easier to assemble.
have fun
greetings from a nearly sunny but cool north, expecting max temp of 50F
trolle
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Kev,
If you do remove the final drive from the swingarm, here is some more sage advice from he who is known as Duane.
When reassembling the two pieces, do not tighten the 4 bolts completely until you slide the rear axle through the swingarm/final drive. This aligns everything for the final tightening.
You will also need a new paper gasket for that same junction.
Find a large plastic bag to put the cover in before putting it in the freezer. ;)
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Well I did my brake actuating rod o-rings today, and that looks the likely culprit for the oil in the hub area as there was oil behind the big washer, and the shaft was a loose fit in the hole, but after fitting the three new o-rings it was a much tighter fit, an easy job, and for the price of the o-rings worth doing when you change the final drive oil.
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I hope that takes care of it for you. I had the rear wheel off (fitting the stainless axle) my project '82 LS a couple weeks ago and it was also an oily mess inside the brake drum, soaked shoes, etc. [smiley=furious3.gif] Hopefully it's the O-rings, much easier than farkling around with the seal around the splines... :P