The New And Improved Unofficial R65 Forum V2
Technical Discussion => BMW Technical Q&A, Primarily R65 => Topic started by: weasel01 on June 03, 2009, 11:10:22 AM
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I am slowly going throught this old machine trying to get it back in shape.
I plan to do the spline lube next but noticed a leak coming from the boot area?
Is this just a boot replacement or is there another seal I need to change?
I should say I went with a synthetic gear lube for the first time,,,I've heard it sometimes leakes and then a change back to real lube stops the leak ....for a while?
Any experience here?
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The boot deteriorates (just like any rubber part) over time and develops cracks. Also, the clamps might be a bit flaky so I would suggest you get a new pair of clamps along with the boot. I saved quite a bit on the "Junkyard Dawg" by ordering these items from Moto-Bins.
Synthetic doesn't actually make things leak but it is more likely to illuminate marginal gaskets and seals by being slipperier and a better cleaner than dino oil. I have read (long, long ago) that crud and varnish can build up on shafts using dino oil and actually form a "dam" at the seal/shaft interface thus helping a marginal seal do it's job. After changing to synthetic this "crud dam" can be dissolved resulting in the marginal seal not being up to the task. Usually switching back to dino will "fix" the leak, as long as it wasn't much more than a "seep", due to the dino stuff not being as slippery...
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So Justin you think its just the boot?
I think that requires a special tool and replacing the bolts with the short ones?
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Requires a 12-point box wrench to fit the four bolts and a 27mm modified socket to pull the swing arm pivot lock nuts. It's a great opportunity to do a spline lube, too.
Monte
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You haven't listed what year bike so I have no idea about your bolts and the rest is what the "old cheap one" said...
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it's a regular ol' 1983 R65
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Check the clamps that hold the boot on, there is a channel shaped piece of metal that bridges the gap between the two 'ears' that the small screw goes through .
It's spot welded to one side, but it comes loose pretty easily .
It's easily lost, best to check your drain pan for extra parts, before discarding the used oil .
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The '83 will probably have the updated bolts and no split lock washers. Technically the flange bolts are to be replaced but I (along with many other BMW owners) have started reusing them with blue thread locker. But, if you run into the ones with washers they need to be "upgraded" to the new ones and toss what's left of the washers.
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I replace the boot everytime I do the spline lube AND the throwout bearing service. (Please remember to do the throwout bearing service when you do the spline lube!) This happens every 15,000 miles for me. As I have plans to head into the wilderness at some time this is just prevenative maintenance for me. Ozone chews up exposed rubber parts quite quickly.
This crappy advise worth 2 cents.
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Well, Bill, the boots will usually last (in TX) 7-8 years...
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...the "old cheap one" said...
Frugal. That's frugal... [smiley=cowsleep.gif]
I did drive to Austin this past weekend to visit grandkids and fix my son's bathtub drain plumbing issues.
Bought new "short" bolts for the 81's boot replacement chore and love the parts guys at Lone Star BMW n Austin. They "reminded" me that washers are no longer used with the U-joint bolts. Also told me they maintain a large inventory of airhead parts.
Senor El Cheapo Grande averaged 28.6 MPG over 600+ miles from the 315 HP Northstar V8 in wife's new Cadillac Deville Touring Sedan. Regular gas. 70 MPH cruise and was indicating 1900 RPM on the digital tach! I love our big economy car!
Monte
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I noticed my new boot leaking slightly some time after I did the spline lube. I simply needed to align the rear clamp better and tighten it. By the way my original boot was still in great shape, but changed to a new one regardless. I spray the boots with silicone every once in a while. Seems to keep em soft.
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Did I really say that? :o
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Be aware that the boots also have to be orientated properly.
There is an indent on the boot for the tab on the swinging arm. If you do not orientate it correctly it will leak. The boot is also designed to deflected in a particular plane -i.e. up and down. Thats why it is shaped the way it is and the indent is there to get us to put them on properly.
Don't ask me how I know ;)
Its a pig of a job to get the boot back on, but persevere and you will be rewarded...(it might take a little time though ::))
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I've read that it's a tough job...what's the trick ?
Is it real tight? the micro fiche says it can be installed with an o-ring removal too...l
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The job isn't that difficult, but the first time it will try your patience, I have been warming the rubber boot up with a hair dryer, once it gets pliable, it stays in place .
The biggest challenge, is that you can secure one side of it, but the boot keeps creeping back when you start installing it on the other end, that's when heating up the boot helps .
I start by installing the clamp on the aft side, before going to the front or forward end .
Also when you have the boot in hand, look for the word 'OBEN' molded into the rubber, this goes up .
My German is rusty, but I think it means top or up .
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OK... so I'm ordering my parts and the manual says replace the gasket at the swing arm bearings each time the are removerd but the parts fiche only give a part number for "Up to 1981" I have an '83 and when I called Chicago BMW they didnt even have a current listing you guys have any idea what I should do?
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The only thing on the bearings is a large flat washer .
The bearings usually don't get in too bad of shape, and they don't rotate, they just move in a small arc .
Pump some grease in there every time you wash the bike, and you shouldn't have any issues with them .
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So I ordered the new boot 2 new clamps 4 new bolts and I also got the seal at the final drive as I'm getting some leakage from the drive shaft into the final drive.
I'm hoping that will be straight forward but I havent read up on it yet.
Thanks Bob for the heads up on the swingarm not using the seal...
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I would say fiddly and a little bit frustrating.
Sometimes it can take 30 secs, and other times 30 mins and some swearing.
That is all.
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well....the boot had to be ordered from bmw on my order from chicago bmw so I went out to the garage and thought I might clean it up and check the clamps and each clamp had about a turn and a half left so I cranked em' down but it looks like the back clamp is already embedded in the rubber...maybe it will slow while I wait for the backorder....
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Moto-Bins usually has them in stock for less and quicker - even with postage from across the pond...
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You could aways clean it up and use a punture repair kit, if you can identify where the leak is coming from and its not a clamp issue.
I have seen it done successfully and the fix lasted years, although he eventually did change it.
Just a thought to keep you going.
Steve H
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I have put a smear of silicone over slight cracks that were just starting to seep. I did this on the '95 R100RT and that prolonged by boot replacement about two years - until the tranny went south! :P
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The weather has decided to clear up today so tonight I'm gonna take a ride and see if there is any improvement in the leaky boot....
Got all my special tools in the mail yesterday but the boot's back ordered for a week so theres no sense in dropping the swingarm to do the spline lube and then turn around and drop it again when the boot gets here....or is it straight forwrd enough to do twice?
drat....weekends are tinkertime dangit.
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The tranny didnt go south cause of the leaky boot did it?
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No, just your "typical" BMW tranny bearing failure. I changed it when it was just starting to get rough so nothing else got torn up. The rear bearing was the worst.
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Well...I went out for a nice long ride last night and when I got home I parked the bike looked at the boot and not a single drop of oil....went inside pulled a fresh beer off my kegerator walked back outside to marvel at the boot fix and just as I looked down there a drip formed in the same place and started to dribble down the back wall of the tranny......DRAT.
Guess I'll just have to wait for the boot to show up before I drop the rear end....bummer
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Justin, is typical bmw bearing failure due to high miles?
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Well, with a 26 year old vehicle, rubber parts just need to be replaced, there's no real way of getting around the age issues with our bikes .
Once you get it all sorted out, you don't have to get concerned about these things for quite some time .
Just had a thought, have you checked the bolt that secures the ground cable from the battery to the transmission ?
It is a hollow bolt, and serves as the breather vent for the transmission .
If it's clogged, the transmission my be 'pressurizing' when it gets up to operating temperature .
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No, mileage was quite low at about 50k miles. It seems these transmissions can barf bearings at will. Some go well over 100k without any issues and some croak well before mine.
When I bought the bike the lube was nice and clean on the first change and I ran it exclusively with synthetic lube. The plug always had just the normal "fuzz" on it and there was no water leakage into the trans. You know the old saying, "$hit happens"...
I might add that I did not have a complete bearing failure but the rear (output) bearing was getting very stiff and "notchy" and I could hear it clunk when I pushed the bike into the garage. I had first suspected the U-joint...
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Bob, no luck the breather was free and open....still waiting on the boot.
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Justin does the bearing failure ruin the tranny or were you able to repair?
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If you catch it early enough there is no damage, just put new bearings in. If you push your luck sometimes bad things happen...
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I'll tell ya man, it has crossed my mind more than once that I'm riding a 26 year old machine that has not been treated right for the bulk of it's life
and how likely is the dreaded lockup?
Then I start having fun again and just ride on...
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I believe they normally give you plenty of advanced warning before puking bits... Mine started getting a progressively louder whine in all gears, including 5th, and I could hear a rythmic clunk when pushing it around.
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Well the clouds have parted and appearently my boot is due to arrive today so last night I tore down the rear end which was easier than I had imagined.
Tonight I hope to pull the tranny and service the spline.
I have grease for the spline but I am now wondering about the grease/oil
for the clutch bearing assembly.
Is it the same grease the spline gets?
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This lubricant choice stuff is driving me crazy.
Do the swing arm bearings get hi temp wheel bearing grease?
Can you guys recommend a good grease for the wheel bearings?
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I have used Valvoline Dura-Blend semi-synthetic with good results over the past 10 years or so. I use it on the steering head and wheel bearings and I suppose it would be fine for swingarm as well but my grease-gun has something else in it.
About t he only "special" requirement concerning the various greases used are those used on splines. The rear wheel splines and transmission input shaft splines should use a moly fortified grease due to the sliding/rubbing action going on between mating parts.
Oh, the clutch throwout bearing assembly gets a few drops of the same gear lube you put in the tranny.
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And, thanks to help from Justin, I have a "clutch repair and spline lube" article in the wiki (under repair section) which will also give you info and pics on how to take out the transmission and lube the splines and replace the clutch (which you don't need to do). It isn't finished (I'm up to the point of putting the transmission back in, and decided to not just cop out and say "Re-assembly is simple the reverse of the disassembly process".. though we'll see how it goes.
Comments/feedback invited to improve the quality of the article.
As to grease/lubricants, I do use hi temp wheel bearing grease on the wheel bearings. Regular general purpose quality grease for swingarm and steering head bearings. Put gearbox oil on the throwout bearing/piston in the clutch actuator/throwout assembly, and use noly-based, sticky grease on the transmission input splines, the very tip of the pushrod (see the article), and also on the final drive splines that fit into the rear wheel hub. I still use dino-oil in my engine (10W-40) and gearbox/driveshaft/final drive (Hypoid 80W-90) cause I'm on a budget, and it works fine if you change it once a year or so.
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Thanks Gents, the wiki article really helped me out!
I got it all torn down and feel like I have about a ten thousand degree increase in understanding this machine.
having said that now that I have it apart I dont really know what I'm looking for?
The inside where the clutch is has a thin layer of thick almost dry black greasy road grime likestuff but I dont see any fresh oil trail or anything?
Is this normal or bad seals?
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The clutch bell housing can be rather a "catchall" for rust, dust, grime, grease, clutch particles, etc. Just clean it out carefully, paying attention to the bottom "shelf" and see if you notice any "trails" of engine oil from from "up and behind" the flywheel - maybe let the cleaned out area sit for a day or so to see if anything decides to "creep out" from behind there and show itself. You may not have an oil leak from the front, or perhaps only a very slow/slight one - but usually these things either leak noticeable or not at all - in my limited experience. Also examine the front of the transmission to see if there is evidence of of gearbox oil leaking from the seal around the input shaft - this is also sometimes a source of oil in the bell housing area, though more often it is the rear main seal or oil pump cover.
Take some pics of before and after your cleaning and post here if you want an opinion - when I first took my transmission off, the entire inside of the bell housing was coated in grime and teeny tiney metal shavings from the damaged splines. A bit of flung off grease from the shaft splines makes a good "adhesive" for what is normally a very dusty/grimey area.
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Thanks for the guidance Nhmaf, I cleaned it up somewhat last night to check for fresh oil today.
My plan was to do the most needed repairs now ride it for the summer and then do a big tear down as a winter project.....
But maybe I'm doing it now?
Oh well off to the garage for a leak check.
I'll report back later.
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OK, I went out to the garage for a look and dont see any fresh oil trails.
The I cleaned off the shelf area last night and the front of the tranny and I see no evidence of any oil at all they are both dry.
I think I will let it sit there all day and if it's still dry when I get home I think I'll go ahead with the spline lube process re assemble and keep an eye on it while collecting up the tools that I dont have and the parts that will be .
Maybe tear it back down in a month or 2 if there is a noticable leak.
The good news is the splines look good and I dont see any shiney bits
in the housing.
Is this a reasonable aproach or should I just bight the bullet and tear it on down?
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If it's not broke don't fix it...
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+1, Unless you really prefer wrenching to riding! If the splines look good and you clean/lube them and the throwout assembly you'll probably be good for a long while. If you were preparing to go on some 'epic' journey across continents and many thousands of miles next month, then maybe I'd say take it apart and replace the seals, but otherwise, don't fix what ain't broke yet!
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Nhmaf, what prompted you to change out your clutch was it failing or did you measure and replace before failure?
My clutch doesnt seem to slip or anything but I'm sure it's never been replaced.
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Have you looked at the Wiki article? All will be revealed...
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You mean that very first paragraph that explains everything?
Actually.... I didnt read that part till just now!
That's what I get being a pictures guy....sorry.
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Last Sunday night I dismantled the rear end...pulled the swingarm and pulled the transmission and all the associated stuff of course mufflers etc.
Spent every night last week from 7:45pm till about 10:45 scrubbing and cleaning and re-lubricating all bearings and splines.
Throwout bearings too.
Replaced several rubber bits including the u-joint boot which had a couple 1/4" tears.
Replaced fuel lines and vacuum lines (both lines had 2 " long openings)
Replaced the back tire and tube with a new Metzler Lasertec (ended up going w/ 4.00x18 rear)
put it all back together last night and the morning and by 3:pm I was ready to take a test ride.
I rode in the back streets till the tire felt like it was starting to grab brought it back to the house rechecked everything (which looked good) then went our for the best 2 hour ride.
It is a MUCH better ride now ....shifts 100% better and doesnt feel "squirly" now.... feels solid.
It was covered with caked on rode grime... now it's all perfectly clean and lubed and adjust per the book.
The suspension is smooth now before it felt like I was fighting it but it might have been that old tire?
Best of all no burning gear lube stink from the boot anymore.
This is my first attempt at being a motorcycle mechanic sorry for asking too many questions but the learning curve is steep.
Thanks again for all the members support!
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Congrats on the work accomplished !!!
You've got a big portion of what needs to be done to the bike to get it back into roadworthy reliable condition .
Pop a cold one you deserve it !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Just a snippet of info, lanoline (sheep grease) is perfect for protecting rubber parts, such as swing arm boots, gaiters on front forks etc etc.
I have used it for over 40 years now, even stilll have my old Cousteau twin hose air reg (SCUBA), in working condition, made in 1966! It is a remarkable product.