The New And Improved Unofficial R65 Forum V2
Technical Discussion => BMW Technical Q&A, Primarily R65 => Topic started by: rob650 on March 31, 2009, 03:44:45 PM
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Installed a new shifter shaft seal during my spline / swingarm maintenance and now it leaks. I've pulled it out again and examined it, doesnt look damaged. Is there some trick to this? I have the "ridged" side towards the trans and the "flat" side towards the shifter.
I should have left it alone! the old one didnt leak, i just thought it would be good change it out since I was going to the dealership anyway for other parts....argh.
Other than that, really starting to enjoy the smell of 75w90...
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I cannot recall offhand which end goes in first, but MrRiden or someone else will probably chime in soon with the answer. It is important that the seal goes in straight and is fully seated. I'm not sure if one can re-use one after it has gone in and been pulled out again?
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The side with the spring visible goes in toward the transmission.
So it sounds like you have it in the correct way.
How far in did you install it ?
I think if you install it too far in, it might leak, as the shift lever has a 'seam' where it contacts the mating part in the transmission.
Did you by chance look at the surface where the seal sits, gouges or pitting may cause leakage in that 'bore' area.
Check the allen head bolt that hold the shift lever on, to see if it is tight.
If the seal is in crooked enough to leak, it should also be causing shifting problems, ask me how I know this little fact !!!!!
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There's a spring?
the bore and the internal area looks unscratched and clean.
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There's a small diameter spring on the inside of the seal, that keeps tension on the area where the seal contacts the shift shaft.
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pulled the seal again - no spring. I don't see it as a seperate piece on the microfiche so maybe I got a bad one.
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I know the seal that is currently installed in my gearbox, has the spring, and the spare seal that I got from the shop that did the overhaul on the gearbox 2 years ago has a spring.
Looks like you may have gotten a bad part.
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dang, back to the dealer
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Bob, who is my grand pooh-bah of shifter seals, has my complete agreement. If yr seal has no spring it is defective. The spring helps to keep tension on the seal lip which is a bit floppy without the extra support. Ok, not very technical but everything needs to be clean, smooth and straight as well as complete. The spring is an integral part of the seal and if you have the old one you may be able to see it. What methodology did you employ to install it [ how'd ya bang the bugger in]?
rich
who hates the smell of gear oil :o
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Thanks MrRiden and Mr Roller
I didn't need any tools to install it, I slid it over the shaft and put the shaft in the recess and bolted it in (not too tight). As it is, its not a super snug fit on the shaft, I can see why the spring is needed.
Of course, I threw out the old one that I removed when I cleaned up my workbench last week. Lesson Learned.
This part came wrapped it its little BMW sealed baggie without any spring, I'm concerned this (lack of a) spring thing will be an issue when I try to exchange it.
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Just a point to note if anyone is interested.
Yes the seal has a little spring that tensions the lip.
Did you know that if you pry out the seal spring, it can be easily undone by twisting it at the joint, a snip with pliers can shorten the spring putting more tension on the shaft lip section, just twist it back on when snipped.......not saying to do this, but I am a boatbuilder, we have to do all sorts of funny things sometimes to correct problems.
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SO, my new seal DOES have the little internal spring, and still leaks. The BMW parts guy says to run a bead of RTV ? sealant around the outer edge of the seal before installing the shifter shaft.
Have never used this product before, is it made to withstand exposure to petroleum? (the trans oil)? Special kind I should get? Thanks Everybody.
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How long of a ride does it take for the seal to start leaking ?
Does it leak statically without ever having ridden it ?
Does the surface of the shifter shaft look OK, no obvious damage, gouges, grooves, etc.?
How far in are you installing the seal ?
My last best place to go after this, is the negative battery lead where it is bolted to the transmission, the bolt is hollow, or should be hollow, it is the vent for the transmission, check it for obstructions.
A wild guess here is that when the transmission gets up to operating temperature, it is 'pressurized' due to the heat, and air can't escape, and the shifter shaft seal may be the 'weak link' in the system.
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Bob,
With the shaft and seal installed, as soon as I add trans fluid to the tranny, in a minute a small drop starts to form on the bottom outside edge of the shifter housing. If the bike just sits there, I'd lose a few ounces per day.
The shifter shaft to me looks in fine shape, no chinks, gouges, or scoring.
Not sure what you mean by how far in...the seal gets "sandwiched" between the trans housing and the shaft, yes?
Checked that bolt earlier when doing the spline lube, its AOK.
Thanks.
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Is it possible for you to post a pic? I'm not sure but we may be entering the realm where a pic or two might help alot. The seal has to go inward a certain amount to do its job, but pushing it too far (or not far enough) might result in leaks.
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I didn't need any tools to install it, I slid it over the shaft and put the shaft in the recess and bolted it in
I went back and re-read your posts on this and I will be so bold as to say this is not the correct technique for installing this seal. I doubt that it would wind up nearly deep enough. You normally have to use a socket of the proper diameter (just smaller than the seal's bore) and use it as a drift to tap it to proper depth with a hammer. I think right now pics are mandatory to see what is going on.
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I checked how far in the seal is on my bike this morning, before leaving for work, and it looks like around 3/8ths of an inch from the the outer edge of the transmission to the seal.
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ATTACHED PIC = the seal in the red square is the shift shaft seal I've replaced twice.
The two pieces in the yellow square I just pulled out this morning, didn't realize they were removable parts. The metal collar fits inside the plastic collar. I couldn't find these parts on microfiche
Whats the right way to install the shaft seal?
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The two parts in the yellow box look like a support/bearing assembly for the outer half of the shift shaft.
I went to REALOEM.com, and it just shows these two parts off to the side of the transmission .
I just used a socket slightly smaller than the seal, and tapped it into place about 3/8 ths of in inch in.
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The bearing is necessary as a bore in the aluminum case wouldn't last long without some sort of bushing. But, this does look a bit overengineered in the typical German manner! ;D
I think that what we can say for sure is your first seal was defective and I feel the root of your current problem is that the seal is not installed properly/to the correct depth. I outlined the correct way to install a seal in the post at the top of this page. It would also be OK to put just the slightest smear of silicone sealant on the outside edge of the seal where it contacts the bore.
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reinstalled everything - the aluminum+plastic collar did take a tap with a socket to get it all the way seated, but the shaft seal goes all the way in with finger pressure. Ill check later tonight for leaks.. If it does, my next step is to try the silicone sealant Justin mentioned.
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It's been a long time since I've replaced this seal (I'm a cheap bastard and only replace stuff when it breaks) but something doesn't sound right about it seating all the way in with just finger pressure...
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Still leaks, although at a slower rate than before. I'll try the silicone sealant next
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Being able push the seal in by hand is not right .
I'm wondering if at some point in the bikes past, the area where the seal is installed, was damaged during a seal removal, and then 'dressed' out with something like a wheel cylinder hone, so now the hole is slightly oversize.
When you use the silicone sealer, make sure the area is free from gear lube, and let the sealant sit for a day or two to fully cure before getting any oil on it.
I don't know if this would be a good idea or not, but would wrapping a few thicknesses of teflon tape around the seal before installation, might make it a tighter fit in the hole ?
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Perhaps a measurement of the bore / shaft diameter [and seal] is in order. Alt sizing is available for the standard 26X16X7mm seal [ODxIDxwidth] http://www.epm.com/oil_metricpg4.htm You probably want a vinton, ETB or ETC style seal not a EV which has no spring.
rich
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It sounds to me like you have the wrong seal. 4 speed transmissions and very early 5 speeds used a 24 mm OD seal, later 5 speeds used a 26 mm OD seal. Your bike should use the later larger seal. The proper seal will require some force to install in the transmission bore, it will not easily slip in with finger pressure.
The proper seal should be 26X16X7 (mm) - thicker will work as well, IIRC mine is 8 or 9 mm thick. They can be bought at any generic seal shop. I paid $1 for mine and it has not leaked a drop.
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Do you have a receipt with a BMW part number on it ?
Can you see the size numbers on the seal itself ?
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Mr. Riden and nothing : seal measures 15 x 24 x 7, which is also stamped on the seal itself.
Bob_Roller, there is no part # on the seal, receipt says 23 11 1 006 124.
I did the silicone sealant yesterday and took the bike out for a ride today, seems to have done the job. Not a drop has appeared after a 30 minute ride.
If you guys think its warranted, Ill get the larger seal and replace it again.
Thanks.
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The silicone may last for years, or maybe fail next week... I would file this info away and if it starts leaking again make sure your local "stealer" gives you the right seal or go to a bearing house and specify a seal by size after you measure the bore to be sure. I decent set of 6" calipers can be had for under $20 and will measure both metric and standard and I think everybody should own a pair...
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That is definitely the wrong seal for an R65. The correct BMW part number is 23121338740. The parts guy did you wrong.
I'd be willing to bet that the silicone fix won't last long. The extra millimeter all around the OD is a huge gap for RTV, plus the ID is tighter on the shaft - meaning the whole seal will be trying to twist with the shaft, rather than being held stationary in the transmission bore like it is supposed to be. You have a limited number of shifts before that silicone is twisted loose. :(
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Mr. Riden and nothing : seal measures 15 x 24 x 7, which is also stamped on the seal itself.
Bob_Roller, there is no part # on the seal, receipt says 23 11 1 006 124.
I did the silicone sealant yesterday and took the bike out for a ride today, seems to have done the job. Not a drop has appeared after a 30 minute ride.
If you guys think its warranted, Ill get the larger seal and replace it again.
Thanks.
The part number you gave is for a shift shaft seal, but it's for R-60, R-69, R-70, and R-90 bikes.
I think the dealer owes you a free seal at the least bit, for the hassle you've gone through, on behalf of their mistake !!!
If you go to REALOEM.com, and put the part number into their search box, it will give the bikes it's applicable to.
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Wrong part! screw the dealer. In S.F. go see Dave
http://www.yelp.com/biz/recommended-service-san-francisco
been there
rich
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Its clear from everyone's responses that I got the wrong size seal from
the dealer. Looking over the microfiche at Hammersly, there are 2 different part numbers / sizes listed. - looks like CalMoto sold me the smaller one both times. I'll see what they'll do for me tomorrow.
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Went to the dealer and explained the situation by saying I was confident I had been given the wrong size seal on my last two visits, and had checked against four other BWM dealer online microfiches to verify that the part # I needed for this bike wasn't the one listed on the sales receipt.
I gave him the VIN. The parts counter man implied that it was my fault i got the wrong seal, because "The VIN says you have an R65 LS. You should have told us that instead of a standard R65". I assured him its a standard R65 and that I knew the difference between the two models, he insisted that the VIN tells him LS, so its a different part #.
He said the shaft seal I should have asked for fits only the r45 and the r65LS. I asked if he was sure he didn't mean that was the range of bikes it covered, he said no, just those two models.
There was about a dozen things wrong with this entire conversation, but he had the right seal in stock and I just wanted to get it and split. I didn't want this to turn into an argument, and my brain was racing in that direction.
I wasn't aware of drivetrain differences between the two models, just cosmetic stuff. Did I learn something new today about R65's, or did I get played by the parts man?
I am the 4th owner, could be possible my bike had been in a crash and the owner didn't want to pay for new LS parts (?) I dunno.
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Parts guy cant find his ass in the dark with both hands and a flashlight! Nothing gave you the correct pat # previously and it is the same part I used in my no longer leaking LS. Parts guy lie! Big time. Go elsewhere.
rich
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Post the dealer info on this web site so that others can avoid this clearly incompetent and unethical dealer. He played you to avoid admitting a simple error and giving you an $8 seal, which will now cost him hundreds or thousands of dollars in lost business. The seals are the same, the engines are the same, the parts guy is a lying idiot - or else has has been thoroughly trained by one.
Who ever heard of "the customer is always right"?
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I'm not sure about the R45, but from '81 through about '95 I believe all the airhead bikes used the same 5 speed transmission.
Did a quick check on the REALOEM.com site, and starting with a production date of 09/80, all the airhead bikes used the same transmission, from the R45 up to the R100.
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CalMoto in Mountain View, CA.
After the parts guy made that statement about there being different trannys for standards and LS's, I was mighty confident that one of us had been smoking crack earlier.
MrRiden - thanks for the heads-up about Dave, Ill try him out the next chance I can.
Relived to know that my bike isn't an LS that's been hiding in the closet all these years...Closets are for clothes.
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It still may be an LS but as everyone hs pointed out there is no transmission difference. I would talk with the dealership manager and inform him that this issue is being well followed on-line...
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The best defense a "Mobile Tradition" BMW owner can arm themselves with, when going to the palace of shiny bikes with gas gauges, is accurate information. Brothers and sisters do not allow yourselves to be placed in the hands of a parts person who in my case isn't as old as my bike. Go to the parts fiche yourself then step up to the counter and in a definitive voice snap out the numbers while making direct eye contact. The counter person may hesitate, quiver even, but you know that you have the http://realoem.com diagram printout in your back pocket to steer this lost soul in the right direction. The devil himself lurks in the shiny bike palace, all you need is your serial number, the fiche and a little help form http://bmwr65.org and the demon will be dispatched by your mighty words!
Amen,
rich
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Right on Rich and it works for we women owners too who historically have been taken once to the cleaners by "mechanics" and the parts guys! Once you hit a few part numbers and fault diagnoses right on..they start listening and lots of respect follows. The best part for us is that we get admiration too!!!
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The parts department of any organization, is the downfall of many a business.
More companies need to have a service technicians as the 'parts guys', people that know the machine, and it's parts.
I deal with this on a daily basis at work, and for the last 32 years in the aviation industry.
Best thing to do, if you a 'airhead unfriendly' dealer, is to do business on line with some of the reputable dealers out there around the world.
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The best defense a "Mobile Tradition" BMW owner can arm themselves with, when going to the palace of shiny bikes with gas gauges, is accurate information. Brothers and sisters do not allow yourselves to be placed in the hands of a parts person who in my case isn't as old as my bike. Go to the parts fiche yourself then step up to the counter and in a definitive voice snap out the numbers while making direct eye contact. The counter person may hesitate, quiver even, but you know that you have the http://realoem.com diagram printout in your back pocket to steer this lost soul in the right direction. The devil himself lurks in the shiny bike palace, all you need is your serial number, the fiche and a little help form http://bmwr65.org and the demon will be dispatched by your mighty words!
Amen,
rich
Nicely played, Rich [smiley=thumbsup.gif] This mantra should also work while shopping at many retailers populated with teen-something "sales representatives".
Don't know if I'm just getting cranky in my senior years, or the clerks are just plain ol' stupid, but many times something just ain't right.
I, too, wonder what happened to the customer is always right... even when he's wrong. At least he'll come back...
Monte