The New And Improved Unofficial R65 Forum V2
Technical Discussion => BMW Technical Q&A, Primarily R65 => Topic started by: Justin B. on January 29, 2009, 04:14:27 PM
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I have lately became a bit more motivated concerning the Junkyard LS and was a bit bummed when I pulled the tranny to clean/lube the splines. The input shaft looks brand new but rotating the output shaft was not very smooth. Disassembly was pretty straightforward (after fabricating a tool to remove the rear drive flange) and putting the $9.95 (on sale) Harbor Freight Heat Gun to use. After the teardown it appears that both bearings on the output shaft are rough so I just finished ordering new bearings (except for the front input shaft roller bearing) and assorted bits from Moto-Bins. There was quite a bit of brownish "mud" in the bottom of the case and rust on the bearings and shims so apparently it had sat with water in it for a while.
Bearings involved are 1 ea 6403-C3 and 4 ea 6304-C3. I probably could get away with just replacing the two bearings on the output shaft but figure I'd do the rest of the 6304 bearings as they are pretty cheap.
I have a rear cover that has the clutch arm pivots broken off so I will mill it down to make a "shimming plate" to set the bearing end-float. Once I get the new bearings I'll measure my clearances and order the necessary shims.
I have pretty much followed the instructions at:
http://jhau.maliwi.de/mot/gearbox.htm#material
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Here is what I saw after getting the rear cover off. You can see how rusty the rear output bearing is and the output yoke and speedo drive gear are rusty as well:
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I had snagged a busted rear cover off e-Bay a few years ago and milled it down to make a bearing shimming plate with:
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After milling it flat on top I flipped it over and bored holes to access the bearings through:
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I'm impressed with your lathe, press, and tool-making, Justin ! I wish that I had some of your "toys", and the experience to use them to their fullest.
The transmission doesn't look as bad as I've seen some that "just sat" for a few years - I swear that some bikes spend years literally underwater sometimes before a seller decides it is a restorable classic.
Please keep us posted with your progress - I've got a transmission that is basically good but will need a new input shaft, and possibly new bearing on the front end and I've been debating whether to try to tackle it myself or send it in to a shop.
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Nice pictures, Justin! Thanks!
In that last picture, you can see the corner of an oiling can. Do they still make these? I don't need one, myself (I have Grandpas'), but I was wondering if they are still made. I use mine for filling those hard to reach gear lube orifices.
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Nice pictures, Justin! Thanks!
In that last picture, you can see the corner of an oiling can. Do they still make these? I don't need one, myself (I have Grandpas'), but I was wondering if they are still made. I use mine for filling those hard to reach gear lube orifices.
Saw 'em at Harbor Freight. Old school all the way. Monte
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Rob, as Monte says HF has some (small ones), the one in the pic I liberated from Uncle Sam many moons ago... 8-)
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I'm impressed with your lathe, press, and tool-making, Justin ! I wish that I had some of your "toys", and the experience to use them to their fullest.
Ditto, with a dash of envy. You know, for the bit of bitter flavor. I'll get there somehow, somewhen. Pretty funny for a guy who's only "B" grades in high school classes were in shop.
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I have a pretty modest outlay for machines, got them all on sale at HF. It is fun/nice to be able to whip up a tool/bushing/fixture/whatever when needed, helps keep a job from stalling when some little gizmo is needed. I busted my bearing separator (forgot to remove/didn't see the snap-ring on front end of output shaft) and will need to go to HF tomorrow and swap it out and I can then remove the rest of the bearings. I must make a note to myself to remember to wear my glasses more often when yanking stuff apart! :-[ My bearings should be here this week and I should be able to immediately start putting it back together. Once I have it together I can then make the measurements and see if I need to order any shims.
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Justin,
Maybe this standard shim kit from Ed's might cover what you may need, now and in future ? Price isn't bad, I think.
http://tinyurl.com/dc2orm
Mike
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I've looked at it but if I only need 1 or 2 shims then it would likely be a bunch of 'em I'll never use.
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I went by HF yesterday (after Ken from OK left from picking up his Red Smoke S parts) and swapped out my bearing puller kit. When I got home the bearing I had been fighting came right off. Always pay attention for this stuff! :-[ I guess my '82 is one of the ones that retained the snap-ring that Snowbum writes about, I feel lucky as I was going to machine my output shaft to accept one.
Hopefully Moto-Bins will be their usual speedy shipping self and I can start putting this back together soon. 8-)
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Justin
Did your output shaft have a grove for the clip. Everything I have read about this said sometime in 84 is when the stopped using the clip. I had my front bearing on my output shaft freeze up and it truned off the shaft and broke the clip.
Don
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Don, yes, this one has the clip, I had been planning to machine the shaft if it didn't. I had thought that sometime in '82 it was done away with but according to Snowbum it was '84. That's how I broke by bearing puller - the snap-ring certainly does it's job well!
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... That's how I broke by bearing puller - the snap-ring certainly does it's job well!
Quoting my old school mechanic grandfather, "If it won't go, force it." ;)
Monte
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I have pulled all of the old pressed on bearings...
(https://bmwr65.org/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.suraklyn.com%2Fyabb%2Fpictures%2F1982%2520R65%2520LS%2Ftransmission%2Flayshaft%2520rear%2520pulling%2520bearing%25201.JPG&hash=8eed2ab8d99bf604d59dfedec3533ffbc08c16a0)
(https://bmwr65.org/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.suraklyn.com%2Fyabb%2Fpictures%2F1982%2520R65%2520LS%2Ftransmission%2Flayshaft%2520rear%2520pulling%2520bearing%25202.JPG&hash=d8a564c3dc184363a9df56a57a7e13ffb6da7bb8)
(https://bmwr65.org/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.suraklyn.com%2Fyabb%2Fpictures%2F1982%2520R65%2520LS%2Ftransmission%2Fpulling%2520bearing%25201.JPG&hash=22b9ec28f3dbe3d1682b99ea0bf30606c8722d8d)
I made a little two-piece seal installer for the clutch throwout rod seal and installed it into the rear end of the input shaft...
(https://bmwr65.org/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.suraklyn.com%2Fyabb%2Fpictures%2F1982%2520R65%2520LS%2Ftransmission%2Fthrowout%2520rod%2520seal%2520tool.JPG&hash=9f992574279259ff241bc15e2237007989d1b6ca)
(https://bmwr65.org/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.suraklyn.com%2Fyabb%2Fpictures%2F1982%2520R65%2520LS%2Ftransmission%2Fthrowout%2520rod%2520seal%2520on%2520tool.JPG&hash=1c30e05275d508831dbcbc643fb6fe3eacd135f0)
... and installed the new bearings by heating them up with the heat-gun and driving them into place with hammer and proper size socket. It's important that driving force be applied to the bearing inner race only to prevent bearing damage...
(https://bmwr65.org/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.suraklyn.com%2Fyabb%2Fpictures%2F1982%2520R65%2520LS%2Ftransmission%2Fparts.JPG&hash=6793837389072496c23ee6f7b01d60fef97856ac)
(https://bmwr65.org/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.suraklyn.com%2Fyabb%2Fpictures%2F1982%2520R65%2520LS%2Ftransmission%2Finput%2520shaft%2520rear%25202.JPG&hash=56ecf4550cea098fadaf756bc3344c1fdd84df4e)
I finally installed the shafts into the transmission case, bolted on shim-plate, and measured my bearing height...
(https://bmwr65.org/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.suraklyn.com%2Fyabb%2Fpictures%2F1982%2520R65%2520LS%2Ftransmission%2Fmeasure.JPG&hash=c4b9acd201019578d7c2fe49ef921e0f93968f68)
I then subtracted the measurement from the shim-plate thickness to get the bearing height. I then measured the depth of the corresponding hole in the "real" cover and subtracted the bearing height to get the no clearance shim-stack value. I then subtracted .002" to get my working shim-stack thickness. I rearranged all of the existing shims and would up only needing to order one .2 mm shim.
I have ordered the shim and next week I should be able to bolt this thing up!!!! Right now the only thing I can say is that everything sure rotates a lot smoother than it did before! ;)
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Rob, the oil can you spotted on the milling table is like this one:
http://www1.mscdirect.com/CGI/NNSRIT?PMPXNO=2568853&PMT4NO=57923195
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Rob, the oil can you spotted on the milling table is like this one:
http://www1.mscdirect.com/CGI/NNSRIT?PMPXNO=2568853&PMT4NO=57923195
Thanks Justin. It's good to know they are still out there. I suppose they are a common item in machine shops, though...
And thanks for the nice write up on the transmission! One for the Library?
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We'll see if it works when I get done with it! ;)
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We'll see if it works when I get done with it! ;)
BIG [size=20]LOL![/size]
Thanks Justin! ;D
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Well, I got my shims and springs from Moto-Bins today so I put my shim-stacks on top of the bearings, replaced the pawl spring, heated the rear cover and torqued everything back together. I am able to shift up and down through all gears and roration is smooth with no binding so I guess it's ready to put back in.
The shims I used should give me .0015 - .002 endfloat on the shafts as long as I did all my measurin' and cipherin' correctly!
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Are you interested in moving this to the FAQ/Procedures?
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Here's where some more of the bits go... The pawl spring in the shift mechanism is reported to be prone to breaking and it's commonly recommended to replace it. Snowbum indicates his theory is that the boss diameter that the spring slips over is responsible for causing the spring to bind and break and if it is properly relieved there should be no spring issue. Since I had it apart I figured I'd replace the spring anyway even though there was sufficient clearance between the boss and the spring internal diameter. The spring is only a couple of bux so I didn't see a reason to cheap out.
The first thing you have to do is get to the spring. Start by removing the circlip on the R/H segment
(https://bmwr65.org/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.suraklyn.com%2Fyabb%2Fpictures%2F1982%2520R65%2520LS%2Ftransmission%2FGear%2520selector%2520-%2520removing%2520circlip.JPG&hash=ccc6ddeb33ce974e46cbe51262baeb32d57b8a66)
(https://bmwr65.org/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.suraklyn.com%2Fyabb%2Fpictures%2F1982%2520R65%2520LS%2Ftransmission%2Fgear%2520selector%2520-%2520circlip%2520removed.JPG&hash=105b0dcb74963ea8ec3cf55339d03b288399e51f)
Then remove the R/H segment for access to the L/H segment. Once it is out of the way remove the circlip retaining the L/H segment and lift it out. You will need to manipulate the shift pawl to get it to slide out but it's not hard.
(https://bmwr65.org/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.suraklyn.com%2Fyabb%2Fpictures%2F1982%2520R65%2520LS%2Ftransmission%2Fsegment%2520removed.JPG&hash=3cbb631b8811a73857773c9a5d0bae858297513a)
Here is the actual shift pawl and where the spring is located. I should have took more pix but I got lazy. Flipping the shift mechanism over will reveal a clip on the end pf the shaft connected to the the pawl. Remove the clip and pull the pawl out with shaft and spring.
(https://bmwr65.org/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.suraklyn.com%2Fyabb%2Fpictures%2F1982%2520R65%2520LS%2Ftransmission%2Fshifter%2520pawl.JPG&hash=2d62ee69e9cfe18618a9ddcf89aac7bf23d91cf9)
When you get the spring off you'll see the 'boss" it fits over on the pawl shaft. Snowbum's article indicates that if the spring fits onto this boss with little to no clearance then it could cause the spring to break due to it binding during operation. The solution would be to chuck it up in a lathe and turn the boss down to reduce it.
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Here's a shot out of the ETK that clearly shows the "boss" I referred to earlier...
(https://bmwr65.org/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.suraklyn.com%2Fyabb%2Fpictures%2F1982%2520R65%2520LS%2Ftransmission%2Fshift%2520pawl%2520breakdown.JPG&hash=53763de40adda6f3715e04a7028be098f8fa2000)
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Every body has read the old line from every manual, "Assembly is the reverse of disassembly", yeah, right... They make it sound so easy.
You first need to replace whatever oil baffles were in the bearing wells in the front of the case back where they came from and heat the front of the transmission case around where the bearings seat. Then while holding all three shaft assemblies together, along with the shifter forks, you slide the whole mess in! Once I was sure everything was where it belonged I started tapping the shafts downward with a brass hammer. One tap on the end of each shaft and repeat until they feel bottomed out. You don't want to whack 'em very hard or the bearings might be damaged. After you get all of the shafts and stuff back into the case then reinstall the shift mechanism taking care to reengage the shift forks back into the cam slots in the shifter assembly. Once you get everything in place use some grease as glue and stick all of your shims on the tops of the bearings and set the rear cover gasket in place:
(https://bmwr65.org/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.suraklyn.com%2Fyabb%2Fpictures%2F1982%2520R65%2520LS%2Ftransmission%2Fshims.JPG&hash=7270b165acd86b9cafbfa9f73de8e78df4b9909b)
Then heat up the rear cover around the bearing bores and tap it home as well. Now torque the rear cover bolts (in a logical torque pattern) and then make sure you can rotate the input shaft and shift through the gears. If things are too tight then maybe re-warm the cover and front of the case and apply careful rubber mallet action to the rear cover to ensure all of the bearings have seated fully in their bores. If things are still too tight to rotate then you made a boo-boo somewhere, most likely measured something wrong or miscalculated some shim stack or another.
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I finally got around to firing up the Junkyard LS after putting the transmission back in. With it running on the center-strand I was able to shift up and down through all of the gears and I didn't hear anything that wasn't somewhat normal for a boxer transmission spinning around with no load on the output...
As soon as I get re-motivated I'l try to stuff some foam into the seat and take it for a couple of laps around the back yard...
If it works out OK and doesn't blow up in the first couple hundred miles then I feel this was $100 well spent and I won't be afraid to tear into the next one!
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Justin,
When you machined the holes on the rear cover plate, how did you find the centres for the job please, did you use a coaxial indicator?
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I have outlined how to make the "shimming plate" in the Wiki but, yes, I did use a coaxial indicator to center the bore under the spindle. You could also use a regular test indicator with just as good results but I use a coaxial whenever I can due to convenience and I'm basically lazy. ;D