The New And Improved Unofficial R65 Forum V2
Technical Discussion => BMW Technical Q&A, Primarily R65 => Topic started by: Bill Conquest on January 28, 2007, 07:51:16 PM
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Can anyone help me i.d. a relay under the tank - I can.t figure out what it does & am having a headlight problem. There are 3 relays, front to back the 1st is starter, #2(going towards the back) is the headlight (both 5 prong), #3 is a 4 prong w/ a 8 digit #: bmw 1 243 560 3. I called Bob's BMW & they didn't know what it was. Anyway, the problem is w/ the ignition on the parking light comes on but no low beam. The high beam in the switched position(up) doesn't work but the high flasher(down) does work. It's not the switch( replaced) or the bulb(tried a new one).Any ideas? thanks, Bill Conquest
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Oh, forgot, it's a '79 r65! Thanks B Conquest
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I don't have much, but first, here is a photo to help your explaination.
(https://bmwr65.org/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.pbase.com%2Ftomfarr%2Fimage%2F73696284%2Foriginal.jpg&hash=fc3b36afa7f01d50ade206ba94913b8ede52861c)
I think it is the "relay for turn indicator buzzer". I am not sure, because my schematic and key only show a total of 3 relays: starter, t.s. buzzer and turn signals (the last being located in the right side box with the fuses).
See if you can get some of the wires' color codes going to the relay.
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Hey Rob - Thanks for the picture,that's what mine looks like.The relay for the buzzer makes sense - I have the buzzer unplugged but will check it tomorrow. Any idea about how to tackle the headlight problem? Thanks, Bill Conquest
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Look at the schematic and see what circuit differences there are between the flash postion and the high-beam position and use a meter to race out the high beam on portion to see where the electrons "get lost". ;)
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Anyway, the problem is w/ the ignition on the parking light comes on but no low beam. The high beam in the switched position(up) doesn't work but the high flasher(down) does work. It's not the switch( replaced) or the bulb(tried a new one).
Bill,
You say you replaced the switch ..is that high beam/flasher switch or the ignition switch?
And although new, both beams on the headlight tested good? (direct connect to the battery with bulb)
If you changed the ignition switch are you sure the wires are on the correct terminals?
RED power on 30, grey parking light on 58, green on 15 and yellow + green/red on 56.
There is a permanently live terminal in the middle of the switch that should be blank.
Chris
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If the high beam works with the flasher, but not through the switch it is probably the relay. The "flash to pass" is wired directly to the headlight while the switch for High/Low beams goes through the relay. Try swapping out your headlight relay and see if it solves your problem.
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Thanks for the ideas - it was the light/flasher switch I replaced & I tried a new bulb w/ same results, but will test the old bulb anyway. I also have a new headlight relay on order, I replaced this one not too long ago, how long should they last & would they corrode quickly in this environment(kauai)? Thanks, Bill Conquest
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Can anyone help me i.d. a relay under the tank #3 is a 4 prong w/ a 8 digit #: bmw 1 243 560 3.
Looking up Max BMW catalog that relay is the buzzer relay and part number is
61 31 1 373 916 relay - Up to 08/1979 replacement cost $10
although don't think it is affecting anything by not being connected. I pulled mine off the RS as soon as I got the bike.
I wonder if BMW used an 8 digit number back in 1979? Anyway the Max BMW number is also the same used on the BMW ETK file.
And just to check you should have 61 31 1 373 585 relay (YELLOW) for Headlight
61 36 1 389 105 relay for starter
My last replacement headlight relay was yellow, although earlier ones were black. Why the change, no idea.
Chris
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I replaced this one not too long ago, how long should they last & would they corrode quickly in this environment(kauai)?
I think in your constant warm temperatures and permanent sunshine they wouldn't last more than a few months compared to our constant rain and freezing temperatures where they only last 20 years. ::)
Seriously, like any electrical part, think they just fail at random. Could you remove the headlight relay.
Turn on ignition.
Green at 30 should be live with ignition on. Use a test light to earth
Now jumper the 30 (green + something) and 87A (yellow) terminals with a piece of wire.
You should get headlight, low or high depending on handlebar switch.
If you do, it is the relay. If you don't we are still looking. :-/
Chris
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I'm not sure what the relay costs from a BMW parts source, but you may want to try NAPA (No Auto Parts Available) most of the relays on the R65 are common european auto parts, so you can get them cheaper than some of the prices that BMW charges.
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Thanks for the suggestions, yah, we pay a heavy price to live here! Got the parts from Bob's, the starter relay is yellow # 61 36 1389 105, but the headlight is green # 61 36 8 373 700, are these o.k ? Will try the test you suggested, chris, & let you know. Also, i'll try napa parts & see if I can save a few $ - thanks Bob! Aloha, bill conquest :'(
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OK I agree with the starter relay. Seems to match numbers for everywhere I looked.
I think you should be OK with headlight relay from Bobs. I really couldn't find a definitive answer. Several sites mention a relay for 'Day light on use' but I really don't know if this is for our North American 'always on' lights or something else.
I see mention of a relay for Headlights for 1974-78 - 61 32 1 358 193
for R65-R80 - R100RT (no year range) for 61 -32 1 244 411
So go with Bob's , Theoretically, they have an up to date part numbers in front of them, which is more than I can find. :-/
Keep working at it.
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Part numbers may not match,the only sure way to tell ,is by the numbers next to the 'pins' on the relay case, make sure they are the same.
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I'm still scratching my head regarding this relay/headlight problem. I tried the test you suggested, Chris, & when I jumpered the 2 terminals( 30 & 87a) the headlight works, but the new relay doesn't. I ended up putting an old 4 prong relay that came w/ the bike, same as the one thats in there & doesn't work, & the lights work(it's a 4 prong, says bmw 1 243 560 3,prong #'s 30,87a, 85,86, + where # 5 would be - 87). Bob's couldn't i.d. this relay & sent me the green one which has same prong #s except middle one is 87 not 87a. Can anyone make sense of this? Maybe i'll just drive around withe the jumper wire & call it a day! Thanks, Bill Conquest
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Hi Bill,
Ok just pulled the headlight relay on my '81 G/S (sorry only bike that is apart at the moment)
Relay is metal case #0332014404 but it is a 4 pin -- 86, 87, 85, 30
Question .. my female plug is plastic and is capable of holding 5 pins but there isn't actually a pin in the centre hole. Do you actually have 5 physical wires into the plug?
Chris
Attached real ugly and quick terminal layout
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Hi Chris - Thanks for the reply! My female plastic plug has 5 slots but one was blocked off w/ a plastic sleeve & has only 4 wires( orsets of wires) going to it. my relay has a middle pin but no back pin.#s are 30,86,85 & 87a(middle). The jumper wire makes the lights work - would it damage anything to ride around like that?
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The jumper wire makes the lights work - would it damage anything to ride around like that?
Bill,
Not really. The idea of the relay is allow the power to the headlight to cut out when you hit the starter. So you don't drain the battery as much with a combination load of headlight and starter.
So jumping it will give you lights but is harder on the battery during starting.
You said you tried the old relay that came with the bike and the lights worked, why not put that in?
More testing ideas..
With ignition on, relay out, put a test light on female plug 85 which is black and from there to battery ground. Should get illumination. yes/no? If no then check black wire which goes next to the starter relay.
Female plug 86 should be brown and should be a ground. One way to test would be, relay out, ignition OFF, run test light from battery positive to 86. Should illuminate. Basically you are forcing power backwards through circuit, but it will only illuminate if the ground wires are good. If it doesn't then there is a broken ground somewhere. This ground joins up with all the other grounds from headlight, dash lights etc.
You do need a relay with the 87a, because 87 and 87a do opposite things. Think 87 gets power when 85,86 is closed and 87a gets power when 85,86 are open.
If Bobs relay has the right plug layout, all except that it is 87 instead of 87a, you should be able to go to a NAPA , show them the relay and ask them to get you an identical one but with 87a.
Sorry I am so long winded.
Good luck.
Chris
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Chris said: Sorry I am so long winded.
I am just glad we have you here, Chris. I would be hard pressed to figure this out on my own bike.
Amazing how I can conceptualize the workings of the unknown universe, but an airhead's more subtle electrical systems leave me dumbfounded!
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Hey Chris - Thanks for the great ideas - i'd use the old relay but it was working intermittently, when i squeezed the case it would work. I thought it was a bad plug receptacle but none of the other relays would work when I moved them around, so I assumed the relay had a problem. If I can find a new one of these relays that will answer that! I'll try the tests tomorrow & also check at Nappa Auto for a relay. You are amazing, Chris - thanks for your knowledge! Aloha, Bill Conquest
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Bill,
open up your fuse box and check to see if both fuses are in tack - they are the metal strip over ceramic kind. I was being driven crazy for not having functioning turn signals - I knew they worked before I took things apart but on reassembly they would not work proerly - they would work if I held the high beam flasher switch down made me nutz until I figured out to look st the fuses. Maybe it is just this simple, but at least it is very easy to check - if the fuse is blown replace or if you're out of fuses jumper the terminals to test if it solves the problem.
it took me a lomg time to realize that there even was a fuse box on the bloody machine - under the frame downtube where it wishbones - the cover about 2 inch rectangle has a knuruled screw that loosen and withdraws so the cover can be removed and the fuses inspected.
good luck
Kling Tut
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Bill, I've never been inside of one of these relays but how easy does it look like it would be to get the metal can/cover off? I have performed "surgery" on various old Volvo relays with good results. Some of the Volvo relays actually contain a small PCB that often have cold/defective solder joints. Your ability to get it to work by squeezing the relay makes me wonder...
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Yes, there might be an intermittent within the relay. Or, maybe the blades on the relay
(or the wipers in the socket into which it plugs) are bent a little such that they make loose,
or intermittent/no contact when the relay is inserted into the socket ? Squeezing the relay
might be deflecting the terminals just enough to cause it to contact the wiper in the socket ?
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You can get the relays apart, but all you can really work on inside is the set of points. A little emery to clean up the contacts. A lot of of the time though there is a break in the very fine wire in the coil. Nothing possible to fix here and it is normally a heat related failure anyway, so intermittent.
For $10 , easier to replace the relay.. assuming you can get the right one , which is part of Bill's problem ;)
Also , regarding Bill's problem with headlight, it can have nothing to do with the fuses. The fuses only effect, parking light, tail and brake lights, horn and turn signals. Ignition lights, starter and headlight (both low and high) are not run through the 2 fuses.
And of general interest, brake and tail light go through opposite fuses, so you should always have the capability of a light at the rear (riding the rear brake for instance to get you home)
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Thanks for all the great ideas & observations,everyone,will try will try everything as soon as work schedule allows! First stop is Nappa auto to see if I can find a relay, but want to look inside the one that doesn't work,maybe i'll get lucky! Thanks, Bill Conquest
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Bill, yeah, you have nothing to loose by tearing it apart but if it is strictly a mechanical relay you are pretty much limited to cleaning the contacts as Chris noted. The Volvo relays I have repaired (fuel pump, overdrive, etc.) actually contained a small PCB.
Good luck!
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Thanks Justin, i'm going to try that today & will let you know what happens. Aloha, Bill Conquest