The New And Improved Unofficial R65 Forum V2
Technical Discussion => BMW Technical Q&A, Primarily R65 => Topic started by: Bill Conquest on July 28, 2021, 03:18:25 PM
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Hello, I have a 1979 r65 that is a victim of the oil filter O-ring mistake.. The engine Has to come out to check the bottom and bearings by a shop here and I need advice on removing the engine from the frame ,which they won’t do I need to bring the engine to them.. they have already stripped off the cylinders and removed the pistons but we are assuming that the main bearings have been damaged.. this is a big job for me but I think I can do it.. I need advice on removing the engine such as.. do I need to remove the transmission ..Will the engine move forward and out..I plan to strip off most everything else.. once I get the engine out they will do the repair work for me.. and I will likely be ordering parts for them.. any advice would really help..
Thanks very much
Bill
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removing the engine from the frame ,which they won’t do
Sorry, I can't help as I have never had a motor out of my bikes, but the line above concerns me. How come they won't wrench the motor out of the frame for you?
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Hi and thanks for the response.. I live on a small island and there is only one good motorcycle shop that I trust that could possibly fix this motor ..he has experience with Volkswagens as well.. for what that’s worth ..but being a one-man show he’s totally swamped and doesn’t have time to strip the bike down.. but he agreed to fix it if I can get the motor to him..As I said he has removed the cylinders and pistons . Is it really good guy and I’m lucky to have him as he is my only chance here..
I have seen some other information that says I may be able to pull the engine forward away from the transmission without having to undo the swingarm and transmission.. just trying to figure out the easiest way to do this..
thanks Wilcom for answering,
Bill
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Hiya, I've also not had an engine out. It doesn't look hard though. Moving the transmission back and undoing the swingarm pivots is easy if you need to get some wriggle room. Getting transmission out is then only undoing the driveshaft bolts at the front. Taking the carbs, air box, exhaust and other paraphernalia etc out takes longest and I think you already did that.
This is probably a stupid question, but why do you suspect the main bearings have been damaged? Has cam and big ends survived?
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Hi ..Thanks for the question, The mechanic says connecting rod bearings are shot and since it seems that the oil first passes through the main bearing and then to the connecting rod bearings it could be likely that the main bearing has been damaged.. he’s still looking at it and it’s at his shop.. since I work full-time I’m trying to juggle this with my job.. but I’m not sure if it makes sense to go halfway and take a chance and then find out that the main bearing has been damaged.. any thoughts on that or appreciated..
Thanks much
Bill
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Yeah, I agree that it would be prudent to go ahead and renew the mains if the rods are chewed up.
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It might be worth slowly taking it apart yourself. If mains,cam and various other parts are destroyed, then oil pump and cam bearings etc might want looking at too. Mega cost to replace.
Recon engines is a big ask, but maybe another bike might be the way forward. Scruffy as hell with a solid engine.
Nightmare ☹️
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Thanks so much for the replies..Yeah it’s a real dilemma if I find out the main bearings are shot if I should continue forward or like the suggestion says to pursue another bike possibly.. it’s really odd that this happened because I used the same shim arrangement that I’ve always used.. i’m going to be pretty paranoid after this! And I shut the motor off as soon as the red light came on which was a bit of a surprise..oh ,man..there are always surprises out there waiting..
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Well white metal bearings are sacrificial. And cheap ish!
Did the oil filter housing slip in the case or something? i.e.. O ring loose? I'd want to know for sure whodunnit.
Before another murder.... :rifle:
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Thanks and absolutely right.. I want to know exactly what happened and why.. I took it apart after I got it home and everything looked as it should be.So I pulled the filter out looked at the configuration .. drained the oil and put new oil in ,added another shim ,put it back together started the bike it ran with no red light..I can’t imagine what happened I’ve been running r65s for almost 20 years..Something I will definitely get to the bottom of when I get some time..btw.. I didn’t notice any metal flakes in the oil when I drained it..?
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Oil pressure relief valve could have caused it, happened on my '81 R65 after an oil and filter change .
Had the dealer pick it up and they blew compressed air into the center tube in he filter housing and reset it .
That was in '1982, hasn't hasn't occurred again .
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If you still have the oil filter open it and see in the pleas if there is some sort of metal/debris/whatever. That will give you any idea of the damage if there is one.
And you may find a place doing oil analysis. Bring them you used oil and check what they tell you.
You may get lucky and the bike will run fine after this. (maybe you did not put enough oil in the pot ? and the light come on on a curve ? ) (don't laugh it happened to me years ago)...
Anyway, if the bearings have suffered, the play will be more than expected. Oil will leak more on the bearings so the oil pressure will be too low. So you may want to measure the oil pressure on the engine while it runs. Easy and manometer are cheap if you have a shop selling agricultural stuff or industrial supplies nearby. bring them your oil pressure sensor for them to devise the correct tapping and the estimated range of pressure expected. They will make a gauge a tube and a coupling in minutes for relatively cheap. Hook up your bike and see for yourself.
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I believe surgery has already commenced! Cylinders are off, so it's extraneous bits like tank, airbox, top cover of engine, gearbox. Just time and manual labour.....
The garage is doing the awkward part of taking the crank out. I'd also be looking for bits of scrap in the pan or filter area, has the filter steel sleeve slipped, does the pressure relief look OK, horrible gunk anywhere inside, shot main letting oil go,. Micrometer, eyeball and inspection time.
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Hi Bill - I've had my R65 motor out of the frame twice over the years having rebuilt the bike twice since I bought it. Removing the gearbox is quite easy - no need to remove the swingarm. Move the motor forward a bit having removed the engine bolts - I used a car scissor jack with a goodly piece of wood to hold it up off the frame a fraction.
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The gearbox will slide out easily once this is done. It will reduce the weight considerably when you lift the motor out. It's a tight fit but doable. I did this on my own but I used a couple of ratchet straps attached to the shed rafters so that I could swing the motor out & into place. If you have a second pair of hands to help it's quite easy to do.
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Hi everyone.. thanks so much for the insights and ideas.. i’ve been super busy working at the airport so I’m not able to attack this thing but I now I have a bit of time.. The bike without the cylinders is back at my house and I’ve pretty much stripped everything off..I did remove the swingarm bolts andpushed the wheel back.. i’m about ready to try to take the transmission out and I was wondering.. do I need to remove the clutch release mechanism to take the transmission out?
Once I get a transmission off I can hopefully get the engine out and down to the mechanic.. at that point I’ll be asking for advice as to where to buy parts and what I should replace while I’m there..
Really appreciate all the input as I am very out of my league here
Bill
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Hello,
The clutch actuating lever is fragile, but is easy to grab and hold.
So you have to balance the desire to use it to remove the gearbox and ensure you do not break it by removing it..
I remove it every time I have to remove the trans of the frame.
As you have to remove the engine from the frame, advance it to the front wheel as far as it will go and put it on a wood block while you remove the gearbox.
This will make the last operation quite easy now that you have gained some space by pushing the swing arm back...
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Well I succeeded in getting it out of the bike and onto a rolling dolly.. no it’s down to the mechanic shop!
Thanks for all the help
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Now that the engine is out of the frame I see a number of places that need repainting.
Can anyone suggest what paint to use on the frame to match the existing? I remember in the past somebody suggesting ace semi gloss black..
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Hi !
Glad to hear you succeeded !
I would, if I were you, go the extra mile, strip the bike down and have the frame, swing arm, battery compartment, headlight support, air box (post-81), central stand, foot pegs, sub frame and starter cover powder coated in semi mat finish.
Your bike will look new when reassembled and get both a higher running and resale value.
And it will be the opportunity to know it better, and grease all the points and hidden things which never saw a grease gun since Manfred assembled them....
But this is just my feeling
YMMV .....
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The bill for what is found in the engine might direct what happens next! :deal2:
But yes, if you got this far. Only brakes, forks, swingarm, hub, seatpan, fuel tank cleanout..... :drowning:
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Hi and thanks for the suggestions.. well it seems like the main bearings are OK.. and the oil pump is OK as well.. Will need one new connecting rod and new connecting rod bearings.. The cylinders are OK and the pistons are OK but will be replacing the rings.. anyone have any suggestions as to where the best place is to order parts from..? Also need to get them fairly quickly..
Thanks Bill
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When I re-ringed the Junkyard Dawg I ordered everything from Moto-Bins and had it in about a week. But, during this time of Covid that might stretch out a bit... I guess Bobs or Max BMW might be quicker but more expensive.
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Thanks Justin, i’ll check them out..
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Hi all.. well I finally gathered all the parts and pieces together and I’m now ready to put everything back together..I had to use four different parts houses but they all did a great job for me.. The hardest thing to find was the cam follower..It seems they are all backordered to Germany.. I finally found one used.. all I needed!
I’ll see if I can remember how to put everything back together now😆
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It's easy !!
I had a Fiat X1/9 the engine disassembly was 200 pages, reassembly procedure one sentence, Reverse disassembly procedure .
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Hi all.. well I finally gathered all the parts and pieces together and I’m now ready to put everything back together..I had to use four different parts houses but they all did a great job for me.. The hardest thing to find was the cam follower..It seems they are all backordered to Germany.. I finally found one used.. all I needed!
I’ll see if I can remember how to put everything back together now😆
Hello Bill,
If I'm not mistaken, the cam follower and the camshaft are NLA from BMW. And won't be reproduced as the factory making them has shut down.
There is a "sport" camshaft available in Germany but no cam followers.... So you have to search for good used ones. And cherish them if you want to drive your bike for the foreseeable future....
Just my 2¢
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Hi All.. just talked to the mechanic and he has the motor almost all together except for the cylinders which I think I’ll wait to put the motor in frame first. He tells me he needs a tool to align the clutch plate to allow the transmission spline to fit in properly.. not sure what that means but does anybody here have any idea?
Thanks as always
Bill
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Hello Bill, The clutch disk is free from the clutch and has the splines the gearbox gets its power from. This disk is pinched hard by the clutch mechanism when "in gear". And the engine clutch carrier has a hole to support the clutch actuating rod going from the rear of the transmission to the clutch through the gearbox. So you need the clutch disk to be properly centered in order for the clutch actuating rod to line up perfectly and have the gearbox splines inserted in the clutch disk... It can be done by eyeballing things and tested with the transmission until everything is correct, but easier and faster if you have a tool made from whatever material with the outer diameter of the tool being the gearbox spline diameter and another smaller rod protruding which is the push rod diameter. You insert that tool on the disk and on the clutch carrier, torque the clutch bolts properly and voila, clutch is centered and engine ready to bolt in place.
As per the jug and pistons, IMHO, it would be better to have them assembled to the engine on the workbench instead of the bike. And they will make handy in grabbing the engine to put it back in place. (two people needed if you do not want to mar the frame and use a lock of wood to put the engine weight on)...
Just my 2 ¢
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Wow.. that’s a great explanation thank you so much.. I was just looking in the motel bins catalog and I saw a clutch centering tool for all twins.. that must be the tool you’re talking about.. what do you think?
Moro bins tool #99350
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Yes, it is the correct one but not needed. You have the clutch disk at hand, as the motor is on the bench. And the actuating rod also in front of you. Find a broomstick that fits into the disk hole (quite snug fitting, nothing too loose) and put a nail on it. The size of the nail being the actuating rod tip diameter. Of course, the nail must be center in the broomstick bit... And you have a clutch centering tool. Put a nice BMW logo on it and a reference. It will become the official clutch centering tool.... As you have a picture of the real tool, easy to understand what I mean.
Easy and cheap. Like our BMW bikes.
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Well.. it’s been a little while due to one thing or another but here’s an update on the engine rebuild and reinstallation.. The engine is back in the frame the transmission is back on ..the bike is still in the shop.. I got a call mid week from the mechanic telling me I had ordered the wrong rings..??..Apparently the bike had been honed out one size and he didn’t tell me so now I need one size over ..which are 82.46 I believe.. they are on the way and should arrive tomorrow.. it’s been an ongoing saga🙂..
On another subject I have two of these bikes same year ..same everything.. The other one has a alternator problem and I can’t seem to figure out.. I changed the brushes recently and everything was fine.. now the red lights on brightly diminishes slightly when I accelerate.. I checked and cleaned everything and did the voltage regulator test by jumping the blue to the blue black wire..Red light still on.. what’s next?
Thanks much everybody
Bill
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Hello,
I do hope your cylinders are not Nikasil ...
As per the alternator, if the light stays on it is because it is not making electricity.
For it to produce electricity i needs a proper excitation provided by the rotor. ---> check if it is open or shorted using an ohm meter.
The rotor properly energized make a huge magnetic field in rotation because it is bolted to the motor. This induce current in the 3 coils of the stator. ----> check that they are not open circuit or shorted (they are very low in resistance, 0.3~0.6 Ohm, so you need a proper ohm meter to check them. Check two wires at a time. 3 measurements total. The actual value is not relevant, it should nbe the same on the 3 measurements. If not, you have one winding partially shorted by insulation failure due to oil or solvent pollution.
If both tests are correct, you can start the engine and measure voltage produced by the alternator ----> measure ALTERNATIVE voltage two wires at a time on the stator. You should get something like 8 to 20 V and more AC depending of engine RPM. (*)
If everything is fine, you have proved that the alternator is making it's job : producing electricity. But in AC. Your bike needs DC to run. So you have to check the diode board. You'll find a test procedure to test the set of "positive" diodes and "negative" diodes. Do not forget the little ones. If the diode board is toast, you can either replace it or fix it.
If all tests are good, check the big red wire coming out of the diode board and going to the starter motor : it should be plugged on the same post as the big red wire from the battery....
All these test are longer to describe than to make. Write them down on a piece of paper and mark them "check" once done. In a check list way. Simple and effective.
I hope this helps.
* : measure the output voltage of the stator with engine running at the diode board end. This will also check the connecting wires. If you are unsure about your regulator, you can wire jump it to check the voltage. And reduce the time the engine runs with the regulator jumped.
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Thank you Georges for the help.. i’ve been so busy at work I haven’t been able to address the situation yet..
As for the engine reinstallation..The new oversize rings came in and will be fitted on and the bike put back together…The cylinders had been previously oversized and we didn’t do any honing or changing.. just new rings.. i’m really looking forward to getting it running again and then going back to the first bike.. which again is the same exact machine.. and doing a bunch of fixing on it.. including new pushrod tube seals..
Many thanks again
Bill