The New And Improved Unofficial R65 Forum V2
Technical Discussion => BMW Technical Q&A, Primarily R65 => Topic started by: Ed Miller on December 31, 2006, 03:46:30 PM
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Hmph. As of yesterday I have considerably more to do and to spend, tho my income has not increased. I was riding to the coast with my brother when I started noticing some weird vibrations, but I thought I might be imagining them. Then the tranny started whining loud in 5th gear. I pulled over to tell my brother I needed to head for home, but when we took off again I couldn't get past second gear before I heard the whine. It did not seem to be clutch related, as the clutch seemed to be working fine. I had the bike towed home, oh the shame. At home I let it idle in the different gears (jack stand holding the rear tire up!) and got to third before I heard a low grumbling grinding sound from the tranny... sounds like bad bearings but I won't know for a while. It has about 48,200 miles on it.
Annual mileage: about 9,000 on the R65, about 2,000 on the Triumph (had fussy little issues with it, including that it took me much longer than I thought to paint it!). I think I'm done for a while. Naturally today is a beautiful sunny day!
I do have new roundels to put on the bike.
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Ed, that's about the mileage the tranny went south in my '95 RT. [smiley=shocked2.gif] It started with a soft clunking sound when I would push it up into the garage after I got home. Satisfied it was not loose u-joint flange bolts I continued to ride and kept an eye/ear on it. [smiley=lurker.gif] I then started getting louder whine in the lower gears. Once I started getting pronounced whine in 5th gear I pulled it and swapped in my "spare". :P
Once I had the trans out it was difficult to rotate the output shaft. :-? It would rotate fairly smooth about 30 - 40 degrees, then tighten up to the point where I could just rotate with my fingertips, then smooth, tight, etc. Upon draining the lube (prior to removal) there were just a couple of shiny flecks on the drain plug magnet, along with the usual "fuzz".
Luckily I didn't let it get to the point where it was growling/rumbling and all it needed was a bearing and shim job. :) If you don't let it go too long then the rebuild is not "real" expensive, mine was a little over $300 for new bearings, seals, shimming, gasket, and neutral switch. ;D
Oh, and don't forget your new emblems! ;)
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(suspiciously) ...hey, I didn't start this thread. Mostly because I know how to remove the tranny. This afternoon I'll drain the oil (checking the level first: what if it's my fault and I can't blame BMW?!) but until I have a plan of action worked out I don't know that I'll actually remove it. I don't want it to sit around for months in pieces for me to lose. The local BMW guru is on vacation for a month, of course. I emailed Matt at Boxerworks to price a working used one, and a friend of mine told me about another local guy to check out. It would be nice to find a working used one (from, say, '93) to install for now, and have mine rebuilt when I can better afford it. But $300 doesn't sound bad; I feared we were talking in the $600 dollar range.
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If a shop does the work, you'll be looking at more than $600! If you do your own labor, the parts shouldn't be too bad. Graham had his rebuilt (after 139,000 miles) and we argued with the shop until we got the price down below $700, but they originally wanted over $1200!! [smiley=thud.gif] That's after we removed the transmission and took it to them...
I guess I'm lucky with over 60k on mine and no sign of trouble (knock on wood!) [smiley=smash.gif]
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Hey Ed, Matt from Boxerworks is trying to get ahold of you, go to Boxerworks.com for his email address.
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Ed, I figured that since your troubles were technical in nature, and would likely produce considerable discussion, I'd give it a life of it's own! ;) My e-Bay 1982 R100 "spare" cost me $300 plus shipping which I think was in the $15 - $20 range. I figured with three bikes that were consistently ridden, that all used the same trans, it made sense to have a spare.
I had the '95 trans rebuilt and "rotated" it to the "spares" shelf, although I may install it this summer to make sure the rebuilder got it right! :D I have no doubts that it will be OK as the shop, Boxers by Bruce, is well thought of around this area. You can contact him through http://www.boxerbruce.com/
I am interested in what you find on your drain plug.
Aïda, that's robbery! :o Surely, that wasn't with your employee discount!!! :o [smiley=shocked2.gif] :o [smiley=shocked2.gif] :o [smiley=shocked2.gif] But, I suppose at that mileage he got his money's worth out of it...
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Well, that did include replacing the input shaft and 'while they were at it' since there was some signs of wear we had them replace all the bearings as well. And the reduced price was based on an employee discount, although it wasn't the shop where I work. Labor rates these days ain't cheap ($70+ per hour). We did check pricing at other places as well (including Bob's BMW) and it seemed reasonable at the time - at least the final price did. We did look for a used tranny as well, but you know they are hard to find when you need them...
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Yeah, everything "hides" when you need one! >:( I decided that I would eventually need one so started haunting e-Bay for one and bid on every one that looked promising. After about 6 months of patience I was able to get a "recently rebuilt" one from an '82 R100RT for $300. ;D But, I had seen one sell for over $500 during that six month "observation" period... :o
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I sure hope I can flush one out of hiding faster than that. Matt at Boxerworks (I called him, thanks for the heads-up.) was going to see what they had and let me know some options, but the prices he was mentioning for a good used one was about a thousand dollars, a new one is up to almost 2,000 (dang our weak dollar!) and rebuilding one (bearings and shims) would be about a thousand dollars as well. No pretty pictures there. If I can't find something good but cheaper I may invest in some tools from Ed Korn. I had the tranny apart on my Triumph but nothing was wrong so I put it back together. The BMW tranny is very different, though.
Oh: I drained the oil last night. There were palpible metal flecks, the biggest maybe .5 mm, of shiny hard stuff. I'm thinking bearing material; certainly no gear teeth or anything really awful.
I will pull the tranny out today and hook the swing arm back up so I can roll the bike around as needed. Luckily at my last tech day in Portland I helped two different people remove their transmissions. One was Mike's! ;)
I'll keep everybody posted, and hopefully not month by month.
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Dang, Ed, that sure seems awful steep... e-mail Bruce, at Boxers by Bruce, and see what his price is now. I bet it is waaaay under what you have been quoted, even with the shipping. I hate "quoting prices" for a shop but when he did mine last summer it was more than $300, but less that $400. This could have been due to it being the slow season when everybody's ridin' instead of fixin' but you might want to check with him. I dropped my tranny off at his shop on a Saturday, and the following Wednesday he called and told me it was done!
I have thought about trying to do a rebuild myself, someday. I have scrounged a 5 speed rear cover (with a busted clutch arm pivot) which I plan on having milled to the proper thickness to make a "shimming plate" and I think I have all of the measurement tools, etc.
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Here's a pretty well illustrated article on rebuilding one:
http://homepage.sunrise.ch/mysunrise/joerg.hau/mot/gearbox.htm
And Ed Korn sells the tools. Actually, I don't remember if he sells a distance peice; I think he uses a different method to measure the shaft end play. I think that's probably a job I could do but it would take time. I would like to find a working used one, stick that in the bike for now, then rebuild my tranny and install the updated shift kit at my temporal and financial Laure.
So far the only used one I've found is local, and the guy wants 500 dollars for it plus mine in exchange. 750 if I want to keep mine. For perspective, my dealer will sell me one for a bit under 2200 dollars, with a 1 year warranty. The used one is from an '83, so it should already have the 80 dollar shift kit installed, so that would be nice.
I emailed Ted Porter to get an idea of what he would charge to do the work, with the shift kit, as he's been helpful. I'll get a hold of Boxers by Bruce, too. Thanks for the link.
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Ed, I'm not too up on major component interchangeability, but there's a "totally rebuilt, with kickstarter" tranny from a '74 R90/6 listed on Internet BMW Riders website. Guy's located in Florida and is asking 600 bucks. Would that work?
If so, see link: http://www.ibmwr.org/market/adlist.php?cat=aps
Good luck!
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Ed,
Pretty sure the earlier gearboxes won't work for your 1981. The clutch throwout arrangement is different and if you use the earlier version it won't match up to your clutch, which only works with the later flywheel or clutch carrier as it is called.
Someone with more knowledge might disagree, but think you need to stick with 1981 and later gearboxes.
Chris
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If an earlier transmission was used you would also have to swap in an early flywheel, clutch, and all the rest of that crap as well...
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Hi Ed,
I've got a brand new 1980-1985 transmission (with kick starter's shaft), built 1992 (as stamped in), formerly on local police spare parts stock. I would give it away for $ 800 from my housedoor's off.
Remains the question of shipping approx. 20 kgs. to the US. Any idea? Any commercial relationship in Europe?
+++
westfalian alien
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Thanks all, I made arrangements to have it fixed up. I'll let everybody know how it goes. There's also one on Ebay. It's on my "watch" list, but I don't know what it's up to yet. I still want to pick up a spare, and some spare cylinder heads. For a while now I know I'll have no spare cash, though. :'(
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Ed, who did you choose to do the overhaul?
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It's on its way to Ted Porter's Beemershop. He's been really helpful with some technical questions I've posted in the past, and is one of the 3 main tranny guys on the Airheads list. His estimate (like anyone, he can't give a quote without opening the box) was about $500 for bearings, shim, and (I think) at least some of the shift kit upgrade. We need to discuss that. I figured that was a better deal than the local used one with no warranty and uncertain history, even though I think it was from an '83 and should have the upgraded shifter componants already.
I think it would be fun to rebuild one of these trannies but not if you're in a hurry. It will be easy to get my Triumph back on the road from winter storage, but it's not that fun to ride when it's near freezing; my Windjammer has me spoiled!
:-[
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Sho`Nuff...Never thought I`d see the day.....I too wax lyrical about the Windjammer V.
It`s got to the stage now that I won`t even look at the F650.......Which is a damn shame !!
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Ed, any updates?
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Guess what, if you click "reset" instead of "post" it deletes everything you just typed.
Ted is back from vacation, but the other guy is now on vacation so Ted's stuck with phones and all, which is delaying him. Grrr... I would have called Steve Prokoff but he's on vacation for the month. Why would anybody want vacation this time of year? Maybe they're skiers.
I have the next 3 days to replace a broken spoke on my Triumph, install the new rear brake shoes, drain out the old gas/stabil mix and refill with new premium. Oh, and maybe replace the little spring that's supposed to make the gear shifter come back up when you're trying to downshift. And reinstall the LED tail light /brake light unit. I'll think of something to keep busy.
I got a new front tire for the R65, so I'll grease the wheel bearings before I reinstall that. If my parts cleaning fluid isn't frozen.
But there's still quite a bit of snow on my driveway, and about half a mile down the road, so it's not like I would be riding anyplace anytime soon. The snow sure is pretty, I'll go for a walk up in the woods soon. :D
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I opened up my 4 speed again today to try and rectify the problem. I managed to mangle 2 shims for the input/drive shaft. Then I managed to break the locking eccentric bush which holds the shift fork in place. I buttoned her back up, and resigned to ship my entire clutch and gearbox to someone, and have them replace my mangled cover seal, and all my other necessary parts. :-(
This $#!+ is getting expensive.
My Miata is still not starting, and has a mangled front suspension/sub frame.
My jeep is stuck in McMinnville with a bad Engine control computer, or that’s my mechanics best guess. I have a used one on the way. But I still need to pay for the labor into the project so far.
My R60/5 is sitting with no gearbox or clutch, and a bad electrical system, no neutral switch, dead battery, blown fuse (no tail light or instrument lights,) and either a bad VR or diode board. Which one it is, I have no clue. And I need front turn signals, and to install the stalks for them.
My r65 (vintage 82) need a front wheel swap, a new rear tire, and rear wheel put back on. Also a shorter brake hose as with lower bars, the long one is in the way. I also need to bodge a way to mount an "S" fairing onto the forks. I'm looking for mounting brackets, and turn signal stalks. Problem is the fairing dash is ugly, so it’s a cheap replacement part, but it also interferes with the stock gauges. I’m looking at some Dakota Digital gauges to fit in the dash holes, but would have to adapt the speedometer drive to work since it’s for Harleys. Let us not forget the paint job too.
http://www.dakotadigital.com/index.cfm/page/ptype=product/product_id=265/category_id=235/home_id=60/mode=prod/prd265.htm
http://www.dakotadigital.com/index.cfm/page/ptype=product/product_id=261/category_id=235/home_id=60/mode=prod/prd261.htm
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Wow, you sound like you have vehicles like ours!
Went out to fire up the Laverda for a ride today and saw some curious smoke coming from under the seat along with an electrical burning smell...not good... :-[ Turns out the wiring from the alternator to the regulator was shorting out on the frame. At least we found it BEFORE I went riding. The R65 is down with a bad battery, so...let's move the battery from the Laverda to the R65!!! :P They are the same size, so here we go. Anyone ever worked on Italian stuff? [smiley=furious3.gif] It makes me want to sell the thing every time I work on it!!! So two hours later I have a bike to ride!! Yeah!!! [smiley=2vrolijk_08.gif]
Our '76 Datsun truck left us stranded this week with bad wiring connections to the solonoid, plus working on getting the brakes to stop locking up on one side.
Our '85 Jeep Cherokee is at least on the road, but we have a LONG list for that one as well including steering, mufflers, windshield, radio...
The '76 Datsun 280z is currrently going through a 'restoration' after having sat for the last few years. Working on the fuel injection system now just to get it started.
We at least have the winter to figure out why the lawnmower won't run up hill... [smiley=uhoh2.gif]
At least both my hubby's bikes are road worthy and we have a new Subaru that better not give us trouble!!! (knock wood) [smiley=smash.gif]
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Geeze, I've had days like that... :P Makes ya wonder why ya even got out of bed... [smiley=puke2.gif]
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Great, I'm not the only one going into debt this January.
Mike, do I understand you right, almost 700 bucks for guages for your R65? Uh, to me that seems like too much. I hope you really like them. A lot. In fact, I don't so much want them to be accurate, as I think they should print out court acceptable evidence that you weren't speeding, even when you were.
That would be good.
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Look's like it's bad karma time for R65 riders, two days ago on the way home a truck had a tire come apart at 65 mph, and shards of rubber took out my airhorn, no big deal, I just put the stock horn back on. Today the whole turn directional and tail light assembly departed the bike on the way home from work!
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Sorry to hear about everyone's woes. :(
My only (off-topic) complaint right now is the large puddles of water that gather on the floor of the front seat(s) of my '88 Honda. It has been raining a lot, lately. This mostly happens when the car is parked. All I can figure is the door seals are shot.
Does anyone know if I am right?
Is a 290,000 mi POS worth worrying about?
If I could eliminate the water, and the car doesn't fall apart from rust, I would be happy to run it until it dies...or I can save up enough money to get another.
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I forgot about needing 3 sets of shocks and springs for all my bikes too, and the 5 speed gearbox serviced in the 82 r65. plus the headlight mounts and a headlight bucket from a /6 to get the "s" fairing on.
Ed, 700 for guages is not much more than buying from the dealer. Really im looking for anything that will fit the 2 1/16 inch holes. Another option would be to modify the r90/100/80 guages to run off the r65 harness. Then put the typical clock and Volt meter in the dash. The expense factor is nothing for guages compared to what it is going to cost to get it repainted in a crimson and grey, like a 100/s with Cougar head logos instead of roundels on the tank.
Did i mention i still havent finished painting the inside of my home yet, nor have i had the granite layed around my fireplace (lived here 8 months, and still have painters tape on the walls.) Not to mention re-doing the bathrooms, laundry room, kitchen, and carpet.
On the plus side Im 75 percent done painting, and only have one light fixture left to replace. but its been stalled for 7 months.
I need another job... :-/
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Ed,
What kind of Triumph do you have?
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'70 Bonneville, last of the pre oil in frames. I was just reading what the restored ones are pulling at auction, and now I'll be even more scared to leave it any place out of my sight. Maybe I'll put a sticker on it that says "90,000 miles" and that will make people leave it alone.
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I'm contemplating a BSA OIF Firebird Scrambler.
The R65 runs flawlessly (knock knock) as does the CB350F. I tore apart the CB400F's engine today to get at the cam chain tensioner which has locked in position. Had to split the cases but the motor is back together on the bench so its a moral victory. The acid test comes tomorrow when I stuff the motor back intot the frame and crank it up.
The CBR600F is awaiting some 37mm handlebar extenstions which 'we' think will work. It looks like I am about to have 4 fully running bikes with no active squawks!!!!
Hence my need for a BSA. ::)
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Bill, if your motto is "wrench to live, live to wrench", the BSA would be perfect for you!
Back in 1979, I had the privilege of buying 1.5 1971 Firebird Scramblers for $400, which came to me primarily in grocery sacks & greasy cardboard boxes with the bottoms falling out. Adding to the adventure was the fact that I was a recent broke-ass college grad and soon-to-be newlywed, with a fiance who hated motorcycles.
To make a long story short, over the course of about 2 years I did get a complete bike assembled and had plenty of spares left over, and it even ran on occasion!
Let me tell ya, you haven't lived until you've set the timing wrong, kicked until you're on the verge of a heart attack, and are finally rewarded with a huge backfire that nearly launches you over the roof of your house.
The pain and swelling in the right ankle are exquisite..... ;D
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I had a platoon sgt. years ago that required major knee surgery after that happened to him on his '49 Panhead. [smiley=shocked2.gif] I don't know if I would owns something that tried to injure you if you didn't do everything "just right"! :P
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Yeah Justin, the old British bikes were great fun, when they ran, but would definitely hurt you if given the slightest opportunity. They truly defined the "battle of man & machine".
I think the only bikes better at shattering ankles and knees were the early XLCH Sportsters, with Morris magnetos...
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Wow, you guys were talking about one of my favorite topics on my thread, and I didn't even notice. The guy I bought my Bonnie from told me that if I didn't kick it right it would launch me, but it never did. I don't know what I'm doing right. A heavier friend of mine wanted to try starting it, so I let him. Launched indeed. I don't know what he did wrong.
Anyway, quick tranny update: I got it back Wednesday, so I took Thursday and Friday off from work to install it, hoping to ride it up to the Portland tech day TODAY. The fact that I'm sitting here typing, instead of riding up there, is what's known as "foreshadowing" in literary circles.
The reinstall went fine, though I had to back it back out a bit to plug in the neutral switch wires DOH! But as I was refilling the various drive fluids, I found the filler plug for the drive line was stripped, and wouldn't come out. I briefly considered loosening the new drive shaft boot and adding the oil there, but that's just crazy. I'll pull the final drive tomorrow and take it to Salem to be repaired. I also noticed that my throttle cables are on their last legs, coming unstranded on the left side.
After I discovered all that, I made a quick run to a British bike guy in Independance, about 20 minutes away, to buy a new reserve fuel tap for the Triumph, as the other one broke off Wednesday morning. Yeah, gas everywhere, and I drove the car to work that day; just as well I guess, since the R65 tranny would have been difficult to get home on the Triumph. I don't want to get good at that stuff like those pictures of people in Southeast Asia. Anyway, I put the fuel tap in, added what gas I was able to salvage that morning, and fired the bike up and rode it a little ways, just to make sure it was OK. Everything seemed fine. This morning I head out and the kicker isn't turning the motor over. It doesn't feel like the clutch is slipping, it's stiffer kicking than that. It did that right after I replaced the gearbox cover the other week (I was in there to replace the shift lever return springs.) but then it started acting normally, and I figured it must have been some temporary misalignment. Until this morning. So I have something else to figure out.
I still need to prune all my grapes, berries, and apple and nut trees, too. I think I need to retire. Oh yeah, and I have new struts to put on my car, and new brake calipers and hoses.
I'm taking today off to go up in the hills. :)
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At the moment I have four running bikes all with little or no "needs". Tomorrow I'm going to go look at a 1971 BSA Thunderbolt. Today driving around Atlanta in the mist the fog and later a little cold rain(36'F on the handlebar). Hey Will it made me think of England (I lived there for a time as a kid back in the late 60's)
And to bring this thread back from the brink - my tranny is at 72,000 miles and still counting. Seems to be running just fine. As long as I keep greasing the input shaft (and NOT the clutch) it continues with no additional wear. :)
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Bill, if your motto is "wrench to live, live to wrench", the BSA would be perfect for you!
Back in 1979, I had the privilege of buying 1.5 1971 Firebird Scramblers for $400, which came to me primarily in grocery sacks & greasy cardboard boxes with the bottoms falling out. Adding to the adventure was the fact that I was a recent broke-ass college grad and soon-to-be newlywed, with a fiance who hated motorcycles.
To make a long story short, over the course of about 2 years I did get a complete bike assembled and had plenty of spares left over, and it even ran on occasion!
Let me tell ya, you haven't lived until you've set the timing wrong, kicked until you're on the verge of a heart attack, and are finally rewarded with a huge backfire that nearly launches you over the roof of your house.
The pain and swelling in the right ankle are exquisite..... ;D
ILOL Steve. Its a funny image!
I actually like to wrench on the bikes. The ignition cut out on the R65 for a split second out on the highway once. The resulting "flash" and shotgun report were quite impressive.
Wish I could purchase the BSA for that price now!!!
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OK, it's done, except for a final clutch adjustment. I lost my special tool (201 mm piece of straight wire) so I'll have to make a new one. I'm riding it, but I make the clutch work better.
The tranny came back much better wrapped than I sent it, in one box then in another box, with padding between. Now I know more about how to ship heavy parts. The seals and bearings replacement alone would have been around 500 dollars, but the 5th gear was damaged, which added over 200 dollars more in parts. Add the $260 tow bill the day it went out on me and I can see that my credit card won't see zero again for a while. :( I HAVE to keep the bike now!
When I had a day off from work, I got the tranny back on and everything reinstalled. I was filling the drive train fluids, planning weekend rides, when I found the final drive fill plug was stripped and wouldn't come out! I don't know how I did that, as I use a short flex handled 3/8" drive ratchet to tighten those bolts. I guess I'll have to stop lifting weights? So the final drive had to come back off, and I had a local guy repair the threads.
While the tranny was off, I had a new Bridgestone Spitfire put on the front, and replaced my upper brake hose which was not leaking but visibly cracking from UV light. Or maybe ozone, I forget which. I can't remember what else I did, tho it's all in The Book.
I rode a couple of hundred miles over last weekend and it all seems fine. If I don't shift correctly I can still get a false neutral going from 5th to 4th (it passes 4th), but I hardly ever have that problem any more. I didn't feel like paying the 200 bucks for the shifter upgrade that the later trannies came with, as I had stopped having problems anyway. Coming back home from the Ugly Mugs showing of The World's Fastest Indian I was stuck behind a guy on an R1150RT. I guess my R65 corners better on those tight coast range roads. :D
Yesterday I broke my painful month long fast of not riding to work. Yesterday I rode the Triumph, today the R65 as it's supposed to rain later. I feel really lucky to have such a nice pair of bikes.
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$200 for the shifter upgrade! Wow, I didn't know it was that expensive.
Glad to hear you are riding to work again. Keep Ed happy!
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$200 for the shifter upgrade! Wow, I didn't know it was that expensive.
!
Yeah, the whole kit used to be around 80 dollars, but BMW doesn't carry it any more so the individual parts add up to much more. I'll be keeping my eye out for cheap 5 speed trannies from now on....